HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 01-04-2017Proposed Minutes 1 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Approved Minutes
Planning Commission Meeting
January 4, 2017
MEMBERS PRESENT: Acting Chair Marc Anderson, Commissioners Gary Goldetsky,
Donovan Saba, Jim Kovach, Julie Witt, David Witte and Bryan Oakley
MEMBERS ABSENT:
STAFF PRESENT: Planning Manager Barb Thomson, Senior Planner Shawn Drill and Planner
Kip Berglund, Community Development Director Steve Juetten, Public Works Director Doran
Cote
OTHERS PRESENT: Council Member Ned Carroll
1. CALL TO ORDER - 7:00 P.M.
2. OATH OF OFFICE – Planning Commissioner Bryan Oakley
3. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
4. PUBLIC FORUM
5. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION by Commissioner Oakley, seconded by Commissioner Kovach, to approve the
January 4, 2017 Planning Commission Agenda. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
6. CONSENT AGENDA
A. APPROVAL OF THE DECEMBER 21, 2016 PLANNING COMMISSION
MEETING MINUTES
MOTION by Commissioner Witte, seconded by Commissioner Goldetsky, to approve the consent
agenda. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
7. PUBLIC HEARINGS
A. WRIGHT HENNEPIN COOPERATIVE ELECTRIC ASSOCIATION (2016097)
Acting Chair Anderson introduced the request by Wright Hennepin Cooperative Electric
Association for a site plan amendment and conditional use permit amendment for an expansion
Proposed Minutes 2 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
to the existing substation and related site improvements for property located at 13700 Schmidt
Lake Road.
Planner Berglund gave an overview of the staff report.
Commissioner Saba asked if the only additional line would be between the two parts of the
substation or whether an additional line is being added beyond the substation area.
Planner Berglund stated that the only addition would be the pole and the line that would connect
to the new transformer.
Acting Chair Anderson stated that it seems that the property is landlocked from a public street
and asked if there are easements to provide access to the parcel.
Planner Berglund stated that there are easements that allow access to the site.
Acting Chair Anderson introduced Dan Lesher, representing Great River Energy, who stated that
there are existing access easements granted through the industrial park that provide access to the
site. He stated that there are easements for the existing overhead transmission line and provided
details on the connection to the expanded substation. He stated that this has been planned for
some time and that they are in favor of the application.
Bryant Tower, representing the applicant, identified areas of growth in Plymouth in just 2016,
which includes nine residential developments and over 300 residential lots. He stated that the
reason for the expanded substation is to help support the additional growth in this area.
Acting Chair Anderson asked what the red areas on the map represent.
Mr. Tower replied that those areas are undeveloped and have the possibility to develop and
therefore will also require power.
Commissioner Oakley stated that it does not seem that there is additional available space on the
site and asked if the site would support full development of the city.
Mr. Tower stated that the picture he displayed is a full scope development of the city.
Acting Chair Anderson opened the public hearing and closed the public hearing as there was no
one present to speak on the item.
MOTION by Commissioner Oakley, seconded by Commissioner Witt, to approve the request by
Wright Hennepin Cooperative Electric Association for a site plan amendment and conditional
use permit amendment for an expansion to the existing substation and related site improvements
for property located at 13700 Schmidt Lake Road. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
Proposed Minutes 3 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
B. ROCK HILL MANAGEMENT, LLC. (2016075)
Acting Chair Anderson introduced the request by Rock Hill Management, LLC for a rezoning,
PUD general plan and preliminary plat for a redevelopment of the Four Seasons Mall site to be
called “Agora” for property located at 4200 Lancaster Lane.
Senior Planner Drill gave an overview of the staff report.
Acting Chair Anderson commended staff for the excellent job they did pulling together
everything for this large application. He stated that PUD flexibility is being requested and asked
for clarity about what that means. He stated that the site is zoned C-2 and noted that if this plan
is laid in that zoning district, a number of variances would be required whereas under a PUD the
variances would not be required.
Senior Planner Drill stated that because the property is zoned C-2, the C-2 regulations are used
as a guide and while the PUD provides more flexibility, it also requires higher levels of design
and provides the City more regulatory control.
Commissioner Witte asked for information on the site access.
Senior Planner Drill stated that there are two existing access points along Lancaster Lane, which
would remain, and one access point would be added. He noted that the new access point would
be a right in/right out.
Commissioner Witte asked for clarification on the parking that will be provided and whether
there would be space for additional parking.
Senior Planner Drill replied that the developer has stated that there would be opportunity to add
some scattered parking in addition to what is shown on the plans. He said that the design of the
ramp would not support an additional level of parking. He stated that quite a bit of time was
spent with the developer on the parking study to ensure that staff was comfortable with the plan.
He noted that the original plans included more square footage and additional buildings, and that
was scaled back to provide more parking area. He stated that there is a unique mix of uses with
different peak parking times, and therefore staff feels comfortable with the parking as proposed.
Planning Manager Thomson added that staff was also concerned as there are no off-site parking
options. She stated that staff would not have brought the application forward for approval if they
were not comfortable with the parking as proposed.
Senior Planner Drill noted that the senior housing will be fairly self-contained and advised that
some of the residents in the building will not be driving. He reviewed the different peak times
for the retail uses, the office space and the hotels.
Commissioner Witte asked where the vacation of right-of-way would occur.
Proposed Minutes 4 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Senior Planner Drill identified the area south of the Aloft hotel and noted that the vacation
request will go before the City Council in a separate public hearing.
Commissioner Witte asked for the location of Outlot A, as he believed that is where the city
pump house is.
Senior Planner Drill replied that the City’s pump house is located on proposed Outlot A ,where
an easement currently exists, but the developer plans to dedicate that parcel to the City.
Commissioner Witte referenced the statement in the staff report that the parking ramp may be
owned and operated by the City and asked if that is definite or just a possibility.
Senior Planner Drill replied that the ownership question is tied to the tax increment financing,
which the council has not yet acted on. He noted that if the council does decide in favor of
owning the ramp, the City would want the ramp on its own separate lot.
Commissioner Oakley referenced the traffic study that provided the number of daily trips that
would be generated and compared that to a Walmart development that was never proposed. He
asked how the proposed daily trips would compare to the existing use and how many trips the
Four Seasons Mall had.
Community Development Director Juetten replied that a fully occupied Four Seasons Mall
would generate about 5,051 daily trips. He stated that the traffic study was done with the
original development plans and had a daily trip estimate of 6,800. He noted that some of those
uses have since been decreased in size or eliminated, and therefore the number of daily trips
could fall between 5,600 to 5,800.
Commissioner Oakley stated that the majority of the setbacks do not concern him as they are
setbacks from existing highways. He asked the width of the setback by the senior building.
Senior Planner Drill replied that typically there is 15 to 20 feet of boulevard space to the back of
the curb.
Commissioner Oakley stated that it would be difficult to place trees and screening materials in
that setback area.
Senior Planner Drill stated that staff is also concerned with that and will continue to work with
the developer to find the right type of trees that would fit well in that space and also provide an
appropriate amount of screening.
Commissioner Witte asked for additional information on the drive aisle widths.
Senior Planner Drill replied that the primary drive aisles would be 26 feet in width while the
majority of the drive aisles would be 24 feet in width. He noted that other PUDs have similar
drive aisle widths, such as the Lowe’s PUD.
Proposed Minutes 5 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Acting Chair Anderson noted that the report states that the impervious surface will be reduced
from 78 percent to 72 percent. He received confirmation that the stormwater elements for the
site would also be brought up to current standards, as there were no stormwater requirements
when the original Four Seasons Mall was constructed. He asked for the history regarding the
park-and-ride.
Senior Planner Drill replied that there was a park-and-ride facility on this site about five to ten
years ago. He stated that because there is bus service on Lancaster Lane, people do still park at
this site to take the bus. He identified the location of the official park-and-ride facility as the
north side of the Cub Foods on the north side of County Road 9. He stated that the Guiding
Principles provide that a park-and-ride facility be brought back to the site as part of any
redevelopment.
Acting Chair Anderson referenced the suggested change in materials proposed by staff regarding
the Aloft hotel and asked for more details.
Senior Planner Drill stated that the developer will speak about this issue. He stated that staff’s
concern is that the building is very modern and while it may look great now, it could look dated
in as little as ten years. He stated that a bigger concern is that the colors, materials, and design of
the building do not match the other buildings on the site. He stated that staff does not want all
the buildings to look exactly the same but would like to see the development tied together in a
unified manner.
Acting Chair Anderson stated that based on the comments of Community Development Director
Juetten, the estimated number of daily trips would not be much more than the trips associated
with the original Four Seasons Mall.
Senior Planner Drill reiterated that the traffic study was completed when the development plans
included additional uses that have since been removed from this plan.
Commissioner Oakley asked for clarification on a design-related condition to limit the repeated
use of horizontal elements in the retail buildings.
Planning Manager Thomson replied that there are a lot of narrow horizontal add-on elements that
seemed to be a little overdone and could become dated, and therefore staff is suggesting that
those be reduced.
Acting Chair Anderson introduced Lowell Langford, representing the applicant, who stated that
he has been a resident of Plymouth for the past 16 years and three of his children live in
Plymouth. He reviewed the timeline thus far, noting that the process began January 22, 2016
with their negotiations with Walmart and highlighted dates when the purchase agreement was
signed, when an information meeting took place with the City Council and when the
neighborhood meeting took place. He stated that there are really two projects, the first being the
building of Agora and the second relating to the condition of the soil and stormwater aspects and
all the work required to appropriately address these matters.
Proposed Minutes 6 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Steve Gebauer, Solution Blue, stated that this project is taking on a big piece in the bigger
watershed. He highlighted and provided brief details on the stormwater elements proposed for
the site including filtration basins, the wetland walk, plants that will help to reduce phosphorus,
the stormwater management pond, and iron enhanced benches. He stated that this is a large
system with many components. He stated that the watershed would like to have 100 pounds of
phosphorus removed through this project and other projects in Plymouth, before runoff reaches
Northwood Lake in New Hope. He stated that according to their calculations, they will be able
to remove 110 pounds of phosphorus through this project and therefore are going above and
beyond the requirements for the site alone.
Commissioner Witt asked for details on the wetland walk.
Mr. Gebauer replied that the wetland walk will be in the center of the site. He said he hopes that
educational banners and signs can also be provided throughout the site in conjunction with
working with the watershed. He identified the locations of the primary components of the
stormwater management.
Acting Chair Anderson received confirmation that the phosphorus removal calculation is on an
annual basis. He stated that the drawing shows a wetland creek that flows through the site and
asked for details.
Mr. Gebauer stated that there will be a mix of water and plants throughout the creek. He stated
that the plants will be harvested annually to aid in phosphorus removal.
Gretchen Camp, ESG Architects, stated that they are excited to be a part of this project, turning a
vacant strip mall into a vibrant center. She stated that they do not have a problem with the
condition staff recommended regarding the ribbed paneling. She stated that it will not be a
problem to change the building colors either. She stated that therefore they do not have any
problems with the conditions recommended by staff regarding the architecture. She stated that
the owner would like a contemporary feel to the project versus a traditional, generic feel. She
stated that they would prefer to have the ability to use the horizontal elements.
Art Bartele, ESG Architects, stated that they are also looking for a harmonious balance for the
site and noted that the original designs tended to use brighter colors. He referenced the
allowable uses and identified the uses that were originally included. He stated that the owner
would like flexibility for the retail elements as the leasing moves forward. He stated that they do
have experience with mixed use developments and the scale of parking required. He stated that
they have learned through their experience with this type of development that one thing the
development needs is to stay full and that is why they are asking for flexibility.
Ms. Camp stated that under the resolution there is a list of allowable uses that is very specific,
and they would like to allow for a staff process that would allow for changes in use.
Planning Manager Thomson noted that all the uses within the C-2 zoning district would be
allowed, in addition to the specific uses listed.
Ms. Camp noted that medical office was not allowed.
Proposed Minutes 7 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Planning Manager Thomson explained that medical uses typically have a higher demand for
parking, and that is why they are excluded.
Acting Chair Anderson stated that there is some flexibility allowed under a PUD. He noted that
this is the preliminary plat stage, and there is another step with final plat, which would allow
flexibility and discussion. He stated that if staff feels a request is beyond what is allowed
through the PUD, it would come back to the Planning Commission.
Mr. Bartele referenced the shared parking and asked if there were any questions, noting that there
is good history of shared parking in their other developments.
Commissioner Witt referenced Townplace Suites, which has room for conventions and asked
how big the space is for meetings and gatherings.
Ms. Camp stated that there would be 8,000 square feet for gatherings within the hotel, noting that
often people that attend a wedding stay at the hotel as well.
Commissioner Witt stated that her perception is that they are attempting to fit in a lot of things on
the site and trying to squeeze in the parking. She stated that she sees the developer as trying to fit
too much into too small an area. She asked if there is a developer for the senior building.
Mr. Langford responded that there is a developer for the senior project, noting that the developer
would be purchasing the land for their project.
Mr. Bartele stated that there is a good balance of complimentary uses that will utilize parking at
different times of the day when the need for parking by other uses is diminished.
Ms. Camp stated that currently the resolution states that monument and wall signage is not
allowed for the senior building, and they simply want to ensure that some type of signage is
allowed for this building.
Mr. Bartele stated that this is a nice mix of public and private uses.
Terese Reiling-Holden, Welsh Colliers, referenced the medical use restriction and reminded the
commission that many medical uses are now finding retail spaces as great locations. She noted
that there are a number of dermatology and dental clinics that prefer retail settings, and they do
not require a lot of parking. She stated that they are a great service to the neighborhood and
complimentary to retail and asked that the commission consider allowing those uses. She stated
that she was involved in attempting to lease the Four Seasons Mall, unsuccessfully, and is
excited to be a part of this project. She said she thought it would be important for the site to have
a sign at the entrance near Rockford Road. She stated that most retail developments have
storefront visibility on the street, and explained that the thin strip along Rockford Road will not
support retail and therefore those elements must be more internal to the site. She stated that
based on her experience, she has not had success with retail internal to a site without having
compensation, such as signage, for not having visibility from a major roadway, in this instance,
Rockford Road. She stated that with all the investment in this project, the signage is an
Proposed Minutes 8 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
important component for the retail to be successful. She stated that most of the customers for the
retail will come from the neighborhood and traffic along Rockford Road.
Acting Chair Anderson stated that if he was driving by the site and saw the sign being proposed
while driving on Rockford Road, he would have already passed the turnoff. He asked why the
signage is not proposed for the intersection of Lancaster Lane and Rockford Road.
Ms. Camp stated that the signs are required to be on the subject property and set back ten feet.
She stated that they are not allowed to place the sign on someone else’s property. She provided
details on the proposed sign and stated that they are willing to work with staff but feel it is
important to have the third sign too.
Ms. Reiling-Holden stated that retailers look at visibility, signage, access, and demographic
requirements. She stated that the sign would allow her to address the visibility element with
retailers and felt confident that the sign would be a good compromise and would allow her to
gain quality tenants.
Commissioner Saba asked and received confirmation that the sign would have Agora at the top
and then smaller panels listing the individual tenants.
Commissioner Kovach agreed that you would want people to see the development. He noted
that there are multiple signs proposed for the frontage near the highway and highway ramp and
stated that perhaps one of those signs could be eliminated to allow for the sign closer to the
entrance to the development. He commented that it is redundant to have two signs along the
highway.
Ms. Reiling-Holden stated that while it may seem redundant, the two signs face in different ways
and the two signs help to address the entrance ramp and the Highway 169 traffic.
Commissioner Kovach stated that one of the signs is placed too late to allow traffic to see it in
time and therefore felt that the one sign along the highway would be sufficient along with the
sign near the entrance.
Ms. Reiling-Holden stated that there are a lot of tenants in the development and therefore the two
highway signs would allow for adequate space to advertise for all the tenants. She noted that
some tenants may not have good visibility and therefore if she can offer them space on the sign,
that will assist in leasing.
Ms. Camp stated that she wanted to ensure that the language included in condition 14 about no
outside storage of goods would not exclude a farmer’s market.
Lance Schuer, Damon Farber, referenced condition 23.c.3. regarding native plantings not being
allowed in basins and ponds and asked for clarification.
Before opening the public hearing, Acting Chair Anderson asked for clarification on medical
uses.
Proposed Minutes 9 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Planning Manager Thomson stated that the commission can certainly alter what staff has
recommended in regard to medical uses and stated that if they choose to do that, she would want
to ensure that limits are placed to ensure that medical uses do not overstress the parking.
Acting Chair Anderson asked if the applicant would come back with a sign package to be
approved. He stated that typically not every tenant is allowed signage on a pylon.
Planning Manager Thomson stated that the sign package would come forward separately. She
noted that sometimes an administrative review is done but other times it would go through the
whole process including the Planning Commission.
Acting Chair Anderson asked if the farmer’s market would be allowed.
Planning Manager Thomson replied that farmer’s markets can be reviewed administratively, but
that matter can be further addressed prior to the City Council meeting.
Public Works Director Cote stated that the intent of the language regarding plantings is that the
native plantings would not be allowed in the basins themselves but could be allowed around the
basins. He stated that he could review that matter further before this item goes to the City
Council.
Acting Chair Anderson explained that typically plantings are not allowed because they take up
capacity in the basin but recognized that in this case the plants are part of the process. He stated
that the City does not know enough at this time to make that decision as input is being provided
by the watershed as well.
Public Works Director Cote replied that the details would be determined prior to the City Council
meeting.
Acting Chair Anderson opened the public hearing.
Acting Chair Anderson introduced Jody Shands, 10800 40th Avenue, who stated that she does
like the redevelopment of the Four Seasons Mall. She stated that she does have concern that the
aesthetic will not match the surrounding development as some of the buildings are much larger
than the one story commercial development in this area. She stated that this was supposed to be
a community gathering area but she was not clear where that space would be other than the
wetland walk. She asked what would be allowed regarding signage, specifically in terms of light
pollution. She asked if the tenants would be allowed to have signage on the back of the
buildings, similar to what the Four Seasons Mall had. She noted that she would enjoy a coffee
shop. She noted that there are already quite a few dental offices in the area, and therefore that
use would not be needed. She noted that one of the hotels would be along Rockford Road and
therefore perhaps would not need to have a space on the pylon sign. She asked what would be
allowed under the PUD in the future in terms of large businesses.
Mike Pagh, Lancaster Lane Senior Housing LLC, stated that they will be purchasing the senior
housing site and wanted to speak in support of the development and are excited to be a part of it.
He stated that currently there is no signage allocated to the senior housing development. He
Proposed Minutes 10 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
noted that they do not need signage on the building but they would request a 60-square foot
monument sign to identify the building. He stated that the building will be run solely by a non-
profit that currently has facilities in Hopkins and Minnetonka. He stated that they will be good
neighbors and are good citizens and community members. He stated that this is a well thought
out and planned development. He stated that it is unlikely that they would be able to get their
construction underway in May as they were a little late to the game, but noted that they would
begin construction later in 2017.
Acting Chair Anderson introduced Ken Weiland, 9910 41st Avenue, who stated that they are
concerned with noise pollution as the neighborhood is already loud from the traffic in the area.
He asked if the City has considered putting a barrier wall around the curve of Lancaster Lane.
He stated that he also has concern with light pollution from the traffic, four story buildings and
lit signs. He stated that in his neighborhood there is a lot of water that pools in the backyards
and wanted to ensure that the runoff from the site would not travel north. He asked why two,
four-story hotels would have to be included on the site.
Acting Chair Anderson introduced Robert Ostvig, 4300 Trenton Lane #312, who stated that he is
a member of the Trenton Place condominium association. He referenced criminal activity that
could occur at a hotel and stated that the association shared that concern. He stated that an
association member stated there were water problems in the foundation of the Four Seasons Mall
and wanted to ensure that the problem will have been resolved if that original foundation is going
to be used. He referenced the traffic at the intersection of 42nd and Nathan Lane, noting that
previously it had been stated that there would not be an increase in congestion and asked if that
has been verified by an independent source. He stated that there seems to be a tremendous
amount of commerce in a small area and asked if there would be enough parking. He stated that
perhaps the parking ramp could be designed in a way to allow an additional story to be added.
He stated that there does not seem to be sufficient space for snowplowing. He asked if a walking
bridge would be constructed to allow people to walk over to the businesses north of County Road
9. He stated that he is a critic of farmer’s markets and is a regular customer of Cub Foods. He
stated that there has been a significant drop in business for Cub Foods already with the
competition from Hy-Vee and was concerned that a farmer’s market would bring additional
competition. He stated that in times of crisis, there needs to be a local supply of food.
Acting Chair Anderson introduced David Burke, 4220 Nathan Lane, who thanked the
commission for their service to the community. He stated that he is not against the proposed
development but does wonder about having hotels in the neighborhood. He stated that
prostitution is found in hotels. He stated that there is mention of a restaurant, and he said he
would want to see something other than fast food.
Acting Chair Anderson introduced Roger Connolly, 4225 Nathan Lane, who stated that he agrees
with the comments from the previous speakers, noting that hotels are not a good fit for the
environment of the city and the neighborhood. He stated that the City did some type of planning
to determine a good use of the area, and he did not believe hotels were included. He stated that a
four-story building is a four-story building, and he didn’t know how you could make it look like
a three-story building. He said he had a concern with the time of day that traffic would be
moving through the area, as truck traffic could occur before 7:00 a.m. and past 7:00 p.m. He
noted that weekends are a quiet time in their neighborhood, and now there will be a lot of
Proposed Minutes 11 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
activity with this development. He stated that signage is a huge concern for the neighborhood
for their visibility. He asked that lighting be well thought out to ensure that it does not cause
light pollution for the neighborhood. He asked if there would be a liquor license for the
restaurant and the hours of operation. He stated that the hotels and hours of operations and
activity do not seem to fit well within the neighborhood.
Ms. Shands stated that there is a lot of pedestrian traffic that goes down Lancaster Lane across
Rockford Road to the Cub Foods area and asked if there would be a continuous sidewalk for that
activity.
Acting Chair Anderson closed the public hearing.
Planning Manager Thomson stated that three-story buildings would be allowed in the C-2 zoning
district and noted that the applicant’s proposed signs are within the allowable height.
Mr. Bartele stated that this is a very busy highway-oriented intersection on the north and east and
the four-story buildings are closest to the highway and Rockford Road and therefore set back
furthest from the neighborhood. He noted that the senior building has architectural details to
break up the building bulk and is set back 130 feet from the closest residential dwellings across
Lancaster Lane.
Ms. Camp noted that there are apartment buildings adjacent to the senior building, which are
three plus stories in height.
Mr. Bartele stated that there is a fair amount of space in the middle of the development that will
be used to showcase the water treatment the site is providing for the larger area, and there is a
potential on slower days to setup activities such as a farmer’s market that can be used for
community gathering. He noted currently that space is just surface parking in a vacant
development.
Planning Manager Thomson asked if there would be small signs on the back of the buildings.
Mr. Bartele replied that there would be one or two that would be included in the sign package.
Planning Manager Thomson asked if the Aloft Hotel has one or two signs.
Ms. Camp stated that the signs would be on the north and east sides of the building, facing away
from the neighborhood.
Planning Manager Thomson stated that Plymouth has very stringent lighting regulations and will
ensure that the lights on the property meet all the requirements of the City.
Mr. Bartele stated that they kept the level of the parking ramp as proposed to help mitigate the
visual aesthetics from the neighborhood, notably lighting. He stated that the parking will be self-
regulating as tenants will not want to come into a space that does not have enough parking.
Proposed Minutes 12 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Planning Manager Thomson noted that there will be a continuous sidewalk on Lancaster Lane.
She stated that additional development in the future would require the applicant to go back
through the PUD process. She asked how noise mitigation would be addressed.
Mr. Bartele said that had not come up as an issue thus far, but stated that they have kept the two
primary access spots in their current locations, as those are good buffers to the neighborhood and
have been working in the past.
Planning Manager Thomson asked and received clarification that the water runoff would be
directed to the south.
Mr. Gebauer explained that the water that comes onto the site would travel to the south and to
their stormwater pond. He noted that he is not sure how to respond to the existing water
conditions in the neighborhood mentioned during the public hearing, but confirmed that they
would be handling the stormwater on their own development site and as it travels through the
site.
Mr. Bartele explained how they will be reusing the existing pilings because of the poor soil
conditions. He stated that they are not anticipating any below grade uses. He stated that the
parking ramp already has some projected growth included with the City’s the park-and-ride
facility. He stated that other parking structures they have on other projects of this nature are not
under parked, and he would not want to see a large oversized parking ramp that sits half full.
Mr. Gebauer stated that snow storage has been thought about and planned for and identified areas
that he has planned for snow storage. He stated that they will not have snow storage in the water
treatment features because of the chemicals that are used in snow removal.
Planning Manager Thomson asked about the idea of a walking bridge across Lancaster Lane that
was mentioned.
Mr. Gebauer replied that they do not have control of the other side of the roadway where a bridge
would need to end and stated that there is not enough walking traffic known to generate the
expense of a study.
Planning Manager Thomson stated that the City contracted independently with an outside source
for the traffic study and was in control of the study rather than the developer.
Ms. Camp stated that they support the possibility of a farmer’s market as it provides a nearby
location for people to gain fresh, low-cost options for purchasing food.
Mr. Bartele stated that often a farmer’s market can pair with an art show for a fun community
event as well.
Ms. Camp stated that the market for this area shows a huge demand for hotels and for the
conference space.
Proposed Minutes 13 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Mr. Langford stated that they had a study done by HVS, which is the leading authority on hotel
demand. He stated that there were very strong occupancy and average rate marks for both hotels.
He stated that both hotels come from strong brands and will pull in reservations during slow
times.
Planning Manager Thomson stated that prostitution is a concern of the City and the police
department as well. She stated that there are other hotels in the city and the police department
handles incidents swiftly when they occur.
Ms. Reiling-Holden stated that she envisions the restaurant to be a community-serving
restaurant, noting that most restaurants will want a beer/wine liquor license. She noted that food
would be the majority of the sales. She also noted that she cannot certify a restaurant tenant until
they go out hard to the market.
Mr. Bartele stated that the traffic counts and truck traffic would be similar to the Four Seasons
Mall traffic, but noted that the hotels would not have the same types and level of activity as the
prior grocery store that had been in the mall.
Planning Manager Thomson stated that if the project goes through, there will be more traffic than
there currently is with a vacant site and will have slightly higher traffic than the peak time of the
Four Seasons Mall. She noted that the traffic is nothing that cannot be handled by the current
roadway network.
Mr. Bartele stated that putting the housing on the site will put “eyes on the street” for the other
uses as this is their neighborhood and residents will want to see it in quality condition.
Planning Manager Thomson stated that when the commission deliberates they may want to
consider a monument sign for the senior housing building.
Ms. Camp stated that it would be a low monument sign in the front of their site to identify the
building for visitors.
Mr. Bartele stated that both hotel sites are ringed with parking up front, so the primary parking is
adjacent to each of the buildings.
Mr. Gebauer stated that the central water feature will have two small cascades which could
generate a little white noise but that will be washed out by the trees.
Planning Manager Thomson referenced the study the City undertook to determine possible uses
once it was known that the mall would close and noted that hotels were not envisioned in any of
the resulting scenarios.
Acting Chair Anderson referenced the topic of architecture, noting that the developer agrees with
the staff comments regarding removal of the ribbed material. He stated that the height issue
seems to still be out there. He asked if there were any concerns from the commission with
architectural elements.
Proposed Minutes 14 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Commissioner Oakley stated that the architect convinced him that the horizontal elements should
not be eliminated from the design. He stated that the height of the buildings is the tough
question, noting that the challenge with the site is that it is narrow. He stated that the portion of
the site adjacent to the highway is a good fit for the taller buildings. He stated that the south end
of the site is relatively close to buildings that are almost as tall and therefore he could support the
heights as proposed.
Commissioner Witte agreed that the horizontal elements help to diminish the height. He stated
that this seems to be a well-conceived plan in terms of the placement of the taller buildings. He
stated that he likes the architecture and the plan, although he has a concern that there could be
too much in this space.
Commissioner Saba stated that he likes to see some diversity in a development and thought that
it was a good message to see separate hotels as part of the same development.
Commissioner Goldetsky stated that he has witnessed the life cycle of this site and thinks that
this plan is very nice on many levels. He stated that he is comfortable with the language in the
conditions and would have no problem adding the language to allow farmer’s markets and the
monument sign for the senior building. He stated that he has always been concerned that the
vacant development could create a place for youth trouble to occur but commended the police
department for not letting that happen. He stated that this will be a vibrant development in the
community, and he will support the request.
Acting Chair Anderson noted the elements included in PUD flexibility and asked for the input of
the commission in terms of the overall request as this is a lot of development for the site, and
there have been concerns mentioned regarding parking.
Commissioner Saba stated that this development has been well planned and there was a diverse
group of people speaking tonight from the applicant’s team, not only the people that created the
plan and/or worked on the details, but also people that will be selling the space. He stated that
this will be market-driven and that will address the concerns, as the market forces clarify the
steps. He stated that they know what they need to do to make it a successful complex, as you
need to know the elements that will make sales and long-term success a reality.
Acting Chair Anderson stated that under the PUD there is a higher quality of development
required and believed that the City is seeing that in the architectural elements. He noted that this
is a very expensive site to develop because of the sponge-like quality of the soils. He stated that
this is true of any development that will occur on this site and therefore perhaps that is the
tradeoff for allowing additional square footage. He stated that medical uses were not included in
the original staff conditions but have been mentioned as a possible want from the developer and
asked for input from the commission.
Commissioner Goldetsky stated that he does not have a problem with allowing a medical use.
He stated that he works in the healthcare industry, and there has been a bias over the years
against it. He noted that there are not a lot of police calls to healthcare locations compared to
other types of uses.
Proposed Minutes 15 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
Commissioner Oakley stated that he would also support a medical type use. He noted that there
is typically not a problem of under parking in Plymouth, and he does not advocate for too large
of a parking lot. He stated that there is a mix in the uses and as long as the demand for parking
does not all occur at the same time, he would support opening up the allowable uses.
Acting Chair Anderson asked if there could be language included that would allow more uses as
long as the applicant can prove that there would be sufficient parking for the different types of
uses.
Planning Manager Thomson agreed that staff could attempt to draft potential language prior to
the City Council meeting.
Commissioner Witt stated that she also lives near this development and has seen it go from
vibrant to the conditions today. She stated that this is a lot of development for the site. She
stated that there is no guarantee that this will remain full and provided the example of the Target
shopping center that opened with a gusto and has struggled to remain full. She stated that this is
a lot to request, and she is unsettled. She stated that there is no doubt in her mind that this will
pass and will be constructed. She stated that if there is a lot of traffic, if the center does not
remain full, the residents will have to live with that. She noted that this seems full to the brim
and asked if it is necessary to allow this much in that space. She asked the commission to be
mindful and not be distracted by the shiny penny. She stated that she would not support a
medical use in this location. She noted that the traffic at Lancaster Lane and 36th Avenue will be
impacted and that has not even been addressed.
Senior Planner Drill stated that a monument sign as proposed for the senior building would fit
within the requirements of the C-2 zoning district, and therefore there would be no problem with
that. He agreed that it would be odd not to have a monument sign at the entrance of the
development and stated that it simply was not placed on the applicant’s plan and will be a part of
the sign plan the applicant will later submit. He noted that a farmer’s market is usually permitted
through an administrative permit. He noted that the specific condition could be amended to not
exclude farmer’s markets.
Planning Manager Thomson stated that staff does have the direction to determine the further
details regarding the plants within the water treatment element.
MOTION by Commissioner Oakley, seconded by Commissioner Witte, to approve the request
by Rock Hill Management, LLC for a rezoning, deleting the exclusion of offices/clinics for
medical, dental, or chiropractic services provided that sufficient parking is demonstrated, PUD
general plan and preliminary plat for a redevelopment of the Four Seasons Mall site to be called
Agora” for property located at 4200 Lancaster Lane with the following revisions and additions:
Condition 14 is revised to allow farmer’s markets if approved by administrative permit,
Condition 21.c. is deleted, Condition 22.d. is revised to allow a 60 square foot monument sign
for the senior housing building, and Condition 23.c.3. is eliminated. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION
approved.
8. NEW BUSINESS
Proposed Minutes 16 of 16 Meeting of January 4, 2017
9. ADJOURNMENT
MOTION by Acting Chair Anderson, with no objection, to adjourn the meeting at 10:00 P.M.