HomeMy WebLinkAboutPark and Recreation Advisory Commission Packet 11-08-1990Regular Meeting of the Park and Recreation Advisory Commission
November 8, 1990, 7:00 p.m.
AGENDA
1. Call to Order
2. Approval of Minutes
3. Visitor Presentations
a. Athletic Associations
b. Staff
c. Others
4. Report on Past Council Action
a.
b.
5. Unfinished Business
a. Proposed trail on Co. Rd. 6 from Fernbrook to Juneau
b. Proposal to build ice rink
c. Special facilities - comprehensive plan - continue discussion
d. 1990 project report
6. New Business
a. New plats - none.
b.
C.
7. Commission Presentation
8. Staff Communication
9. Adjournment
Next regular PRAC meeting - December 13
Minutes of the Park and Recreation Advisory Commission Meeting
October 25, 1990
Page 42
Present: Chair Freels, Commissioners Anderson, Hanson, Rosen, Waage and
Beach; staff Bisek, Blank, Moore and Pederson; Councilmember Ricker
Absent:
1. CALL TO ORDER
Chair Freels called the October meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. in the
Council Chambers.
2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
A motion was made by Commissioner Rosen and seconded by Commissioner Waage
to approve the minutes of the September meeting as presented. The motion
carried with all ayes.
3. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS
a. Athletic Associations. None were present at this meeting.
b. Staff. Mary Bisek presented the Employee of the Month award to Ellen
Keane, who has been employed by the City for four years as a ballet
and tap instructor, puppet wagon coordinator, and youth activities
instructor/leader. She stated that Ellen's experience has included
dancing for 25 years, playing the part of Baby Kermit in the Muppet
Babies National Tour, choreographing productions for Wayzata High
School, teaching dance at private dance schools, etc.
She announced several upcoming programs for winter, including the Old
Fashioned Christmas event on December 9 and the third annual Fire and
Ice Festival on February 2.
The recreation staff will hold their annual planning retreat on
Tuesday, October 30, where they brainstorm program offerings for the
next year.
Mary indicated that evening space in schools is becoming scarce, and
that we will be unable to offer our adult open gym during winter
quarter because of this. We have, however, been able to secure some
space immediately after school in some locations for youth programs,
such as karate, which is now being offered immediately after school at
Greenwood, Gleason Lake and Sunset Hill.
C. Others. None
4. REPORT ON PAST COUNCIL ACTION
a. Plavfields. Council approved the final plans and specifications for
both Parkers Lake and Bass Lake playfields, but decided not to
advertise for bids until after the Financial Task Force makes its
report available to them, which is expected sometime in December.
Director Blank stated the bidding climate is usually better in January
than it would be in late fall.
PRAC Minutes, October 1990
Page 43
b. Acquisition of Property at 2047 Forestview Lane. Council authorized
the purchase of Norma Lewis's property, which is the final piece of
land needed before the City can start planning the redevelopment of
West Medicine Lake City Park. There are three other parcels privately
owned that are within the boundaries of the park, but they lie on the
outside edge and don't pose any problems at this time. The park could
be constructed without acquiring them, but Director Blank stated that
if their owners did decide to sell, he would recommend purchasing
them.
5. UNFINISHED BUSINESS
a. Discussion of non-resident use of plavfields. This item was discussed
at the September meeting, with representatives of some of the athletic
associations. Commissioner Beach was absent that night, and because
of her involvement in the Plymouth Soccer Association, it was decided
to carry this item over to October's meeting in order to hear her
comments. After reviewing the minutes of the September meeting, and
conducting a survey of her own, which involved calling the various
athletic associations, Carol concluded that charging non-resident fees
would generate only about $2,500 and would cause hard feelings. It
was the consensus of the Commission to continue with the status quo of
not charging fees to non-resident youth using Plymouth facilities at
this time.
b. 1990 park projects. All 1990 projects are either nearing completion,
or are finished now. The archery range in Plymouth Creek Park is
finished, the trail along West Medicine Lake Drive is completed, work
is done at Swan Lake Park, with the exception of some sodding and
dormant seeding, and the trail along 46th Avenue is done.
Commissioner Rosen wondered if the City had ever held ribbon cutting
or grand opening ceremonies for neighborhood park projects. Director
Blank stated that grand openings have been held at Parkers Lake City
Park and when the six playfields were built in 1980. The
commissioners agreed that it might be nice to have some sort of
informal ceremony in the spring for Swan Lake Park. Staff will look
into it.
C. Special facilities -comprehensive plan -continue discussion__ Director
Blank distributed information on the Winona city pool's construction
cost and operating budget. This was Winona's first summer with its
new aquatic facility, which generated income of $90,000 plus. If they
had charged a separate fee to ride the waterslide, they estimate they
would have received an additional $30,000 in revenue. Director Blank
also discussed the Crystal pool, which had revenue of about $50,000 in
1989. With the addition of two waterslides in 1990, they generated
income of $117,000.
6. NEW BUSINESS
a. Trail on Co Rd 6 between Fernbrook and Juneau Lane - public meeting.
Director Blank explained that this item was referred to PRAC by the
City Council, who requested that PRAC hold a public information
PRAC Minutes, October 1990
Page 44
meeting on it. The Comprehensive Park and Trail plan proposes that
this segment of trail be constructed, and it is staff's feeling that
the trail is necessary because of the widening of County Road 6, and
due to the fact that an off-road trail will be constructed on the
north side of 6 all the way from Co. Rd. 101 to Niagara, at which
point it will cross to the south side of Co. 6 and continue west to
Juneau. By extending the trail a few more blocks east, it will tie
into the trail coming south along Fernbrook, which will eventually
extend all the way to the Luce Line. This will provide pedestrians,
bikers and joggers safe access to Parkers Lake Park and other points
west, as well as giving them a continuous path around Parkers Lake.
Mary Kochevar, 14603 County Road 6, wonders why it is necessary to
have a trail between Fernbrook and Juneau. It is her opinion that no
one will use it, because she doesn't feel it will be safe. She also
wanted to know where the people would come from that would be using
this trail. She stated that no one lives east of Fernbrook and that
its all industrial. Staff responded that trail users could come from
the north side of Co. Rd. 6, and proceed east along 6 to the park.
She further stated that she and her husband have given up enough
property already to the county and city for the widening of 6, and she
doesn't feel its fair to ask them to give up more. They have already
lost 30 feet to the county and 15 to the city, and now they recently
learned that the survey done in 1907 was incorrect, and they're going
to have to give up another 27 feet. They would also lose a large
cottonwood tree in their front yard if the trail goes through.
Ken Neutgens, 14407 County Road 6, stated that he doesn't want the
trail either. He feels it would be unsafe for him and his family when
they want to leave their driveway, because of the incline and
visibility. He also commented on the incorrect survey and how he has
been paying taxes on this property, and now that this additional land
actually belongs to the City, he wants to be reimbursed for those
taxes. He believes he has given up enough land as it is. He also
doesn't think anyone will use the trail, because he never sees anyone
walking on 6, especially with the widening of the road to four lanes,
cars travel at speeds of 50-55 miles per hour now.
LeRoy Reinke, 14411 County Road 6, feels that the widening of 6 made
for an unsafe condition where his driveway meets the street. He feels
that the apron to his driveway slopes up too much, which makes it very
difficult to back out of his driveway and see the traffic on 6. He
feels that giving up another eight feet for the trail will make this
situation even worse. He feels that the trail would have to be
crowned where it crosses his property, and he doesn't think that's
very safe. He requested that the City put up a privacy fence along
people's property if the trail is approved.
Henry Willegalle, 1525 Juneau Lane, commented that he doesn't believe
the City plans very well when it designs some of its projects. He
claims that most pedestrians and bikers come down Juneau Lane, and why
didn't the City block Juneau off where it meets 6, rather than
blocking Glacier at 6? He feels that the traffic on 6 moves way too
fast and that the City should conduct a speed study along the stretch
where the trail is proposed.
PRAC Minutes, October 1990
Page 45
Terry Groetken, 14530 15th Ave N, asked PRAC and staff if the trail
would be off-road if it is rerouted down Juneau, and along 15th
Avenue. Staff responded that it would only be a signed trail, just
like it is now.
Dave Anderson, 1555 Juneau Lane, suggested that staff check on the
number of people using Juneau Lane as the means for getting to the
Luce Line. Be claims that on any nice Saturday or Sunday afternoon in
the summer, he sees 200 or more people walking, biking, or
rollerblading down the street in front of his house. He's fed up with
how people treat his property, when they pass by on their way to and
from Lions Park or the Luce Line. Dogs defecate on his lawn, some dog
owners use his driveway as a place for teaching their dog to retrieve,
and he's tired of not having any privacy. He's grateful for the
privacy fence on the north side of his lot, but isn't very pleased
with the idea of pedestrian traffic being permanently rerouted down
Juneau.
A resident in the audience with a suggestion for getting people to the
Luce Line in a safe manner would be to continue the trail down
Fernbrook Lane all the way to the Luce Line. Commissioner Rosen
wondered how that would solve the problem of going west on 6 if you're
coming from the north, such as the residents living in Raths First
Addition or those living in Cimarron East. How do these people get to
Parkers Lake? Staff member Fred Moore responded that most of these
residents would come down Fernbrook, if they live on the east edge of
Raths and Cimarron East, and the others would likely go west on 21st
and then south on Niagara. Another possibility at some future point
would be to go north on Fernbrook, west on 25th all the way to Niagara
and then south. At the present time, the trail on 25th doesn't go all
the way through.
Chair Freels asked commissioners for their comments after hearing from
the residents. Commissioner Beach stated that at this time, without
having visited the site, she was against the trail on 6 based on what
these residents had to say. Commissioner Waage doesn't know what the
best solution is at this time. She does believe that people will use
County 6 regardless of whether or not there is a trail, but she
believes a trail would be safer. Commissioner Rosen stated that he
sympathized with the residents, but feels a trail will be necessary at
some point, even if it is 'delayed for now. Commissioner Hanson
reviewed what the concerns of the residents were: they feel the trail
is an invasion of their privacy and property, they believe they've
given up enough land already, they want to be reimbursed for the taxes
and special assessments they have paid over the years on land they
recently learned is not really theirs, and they have safety concerns.
Commissioner Hanson agreed with their concerns and stated that if the
trail is approved, she wants staff to work them individually to
alleviate some of these concerns. She also believes they should be
reimbursed for the taxes and special assessments they've paid on land
that isn't theirs. Commissioner Anderson feels that the trail will
eventually be constructed on 6, and that until it is, people will walk
on the street or on private lawns.
PRAC Minutes, October 1990
Page 46
Another resident in attendance commented that when she goes for a
walk, she chooses the most scenic route, which tends to be the back or
side streets. She would never choose to walk on a busy road like
County 6 and can't imagine that others would either. Some
commissioners commented that people tend to take the shortest distance
between two points, and if their objective is to get to Parkers Lake
Park from the east, they will walk on 6.
Chair Freels suggested that this
meeting to give PRAC time to visit
to look at the situation prior to
of PRAC.
item be tabled until the November
the site. He did not have a chance
the meeting, nor did other members
Ken Neutgens said if the trail is constructed, he will not tolerate
the snow being shoved into his yard during the winter. Mary Kochevar
stated that PRAC doesn't live there 24 hours a day, and they don't
understand how emotional this issue is.
A MOTION WAS MADE BY COMMISSIONER ROSEN AND SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER
HANSON TO PUT THE TRAIL ALONG CO. 6 AS SHOWN IN THE COMPREHENSIVE
PLAN.
Discussion continued on whether it was possible to save the tree in
the Kochevar's yard. Staff member Fred Moore didn't think so. If
fencing or shrubbery is planted as a buffer between the trail and
residents' homes, the Park Department would have to fund it. The
trail would not go in until next spring.
A roll call vote was taken. Commissioners Anderson, Beach, Waage and
Freels voted nay. Commissioners Rosen and Hanson voted aye.
A MOTION WAS MADE BY CHAIR FREELS AND SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER WAAGE
TO TABLE THIS ISSUE UNTIL NOVEMBER AND TO HAVE STAFF PROVIDE AS MUCH
IFORMATION AS POSSIBLE TO PRAC ON TRAFFIC SPEED ON CO. 6 AND
APPROXIMATE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD USE TRAIL. IT WAS FURTHER
RECOMMENDED THAT PRAC VISIT THE SITE BEFORE THE NOVEMBER MEETING.
The motion to table carried with five ayes. Commissioner Hanson voted
nay.
b. Request to buy land at Co. Rds. 101 & 24 (Craig Scherber). Mr.
Scherber has 87 acres of land at this intersection that he would like
the city to buy for playfield as an alternative to a site north of
Highway 55. He presented this proposal to the City Council and they
referred it to PRAC. Director Blank stated he feels it is in the
City's best interest to stick to a site north of Highway 55 as shown
in the Comprehensive Plan, which is located at Old 9 and Dunkirk Lane,
and is currently being considered by Wayzata School District as a
secondary school location. Mr. Scherber explained that the advantage
to buying his property is that it is available now, and he is a
willing seller. Commissioner Rosen commented that he is in agreement
with Director Blank that a site is needed north of Highway 55.
PRAC Minutes, October 1990
Page 47
A MOTION WAS MADE BY CHAIR FREELS AND SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER
ANDERSON TO NOT PURCHASE LAND FROM MR. SCHERBER, BUT TO STAY WITH THE
SITE AS PROPOSED IN THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. THE MOTION CARRIED WITH
FIVE AYES. COMMISSIONER HANSON ABSTAINED.
c. Proposal to build city ice rink. Director Blank explained that Andrew
Benson and Robert Furst wish to build an ice rink in Plymouth on the
proposed community center site. They want the City to foot the
estimated $3,000,000 bill for constructing it, and then Furst & Benson
would operate it, under contract to the City, sharing the profits and
losses. One of the men is a former ice rink manager and the other is
a financial adviser. Chair Freels commented that if this ice rink is
built, he feels it will prevent the community center from ever being
constructed. Director Blank responded that the ice rink would be
located in the same spot as the community center ice rink, and that
the rest of the community center could be added on at a later date. A
MOTION WAS MADE BY COMMISSIONER ANDERSON AND SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER
BEACH TO FORWARD THIS ITEM TO THE FINANCIAL TASK FORCE FOR FURTHER
STUDY AND THEIR RECOMMENDATION. THE MOTION CARRIED WITH ALL AYES.
Because Mr. Benson was not in attendance at this meeting, further
discussion was tabled to the November 8 meeting.
7. COMMISSION PRESENTATION
Commissioner Rosen asked if WCCO still had its Good Neighbor program, and
if so, how about nominating Barb Edwards. Staff said they believed it
did. Director Blank said he would look into this. He also indicated that
he would inform PRAC when the Council awards Barb her plaque, so that they
can attend that Council meeting.
PRAC wanted to know when a new commissioner would be appointed, and
Director Blank explained that they would likely do that in January, when
they reappoint those members whose terms expire.
Commissioner Beach suggested that PRAC start its future meetings at 7
p.m., because of her new work schedule. A MOTION WAS MADE BY COMMISSIONER
BEACH AND SECONDED BY COMMISSIONER HANSON TO BEGIN ALL FUTURE PRAC
MEETINGS AT 7 P.M. THE MOTION CARRIED WITH ALL AYES.
8. STAFF COMMUNICATION
None.
9. ADJOURNMENT
The meeting adjourned at 10 p.m.
PLYMOUTH COMPREHENSIVE PLAN - SPECIAL FACILITIES
Researched Standards:
Golf Courses
1-18 hole course/25,000 people - National Golf Foundation 1985
1-18 hole course/20,000 people - Brauer & Assoc. Minnetonka Comp Plan
Outdoor Swimming Pools
1 pool (8,000 to 10,000 sq. ft. water)/ 20,000 people
25 yd. pool (outdoor)
Seymour Gold - 1980 Residential Planning & Design
1 pool/20,000 - NRPA 1980
Pools should accommodate 3-5i of total population at a time.
1990 Pon. = 52,939 x 3% = 1,590 people
x 5% = 2,647 people
42,930 sa. ft. to 71.464 sq. ft. pool area
based upon 27 sq. ft. minimum per person
Ex. of pools required: 42,930 = 3.5 pools @ 164 x 75 (50 m)
12.72 pools @ 45 x 75 (25 yd)
71,469 = 5.5 pools @ 164 x 75-(50 m)
21 pools @ 45 x 75 (25 yd)
2010 Pop. = 83,913 x 3% = 2,517 people
x 5% = 4,196 people
67,959 sq ft to 113,292 so ft pool area
based upon 27 sq. ft. minimum per person
Ex. of pools required: 67,959 = 5.5 pools @ 164 x 75 (50 m)
20 pools @ 75 x 45 (25 yd)
113,292 = 9 pools @ 164 x 75 (50 m)
33.5 pools @ 75 x 45 (25 yd)
1 pool/25,000 people - Urban Planning & Design 1975
300,000/year - pool construction (maint.)
Univ. of MN Manpower & Manpower
I
RESEARCH SUMMARY
National Golf Foundation
1150 South U.S. Highway One, Jupiter, FL 33477 (407)744-6006 •FAX (407)744.6107
r.o.e.m `two
The Growth of U.S. Golf
Golf Courses
1970 1975 1978 1979 1980 1981 1982
Golfers 11.2 13.0 14.0 14.6 15.1 15.6 16.0
millions)
1,461 1,748 1,894 1,940 1,957 1,989 2,019
Rounds Played 266 309 337 346 358 368 379
millions)
1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989
Golf Facilities 10,188 11,370 11,885 11,966 12,005 12,035 12,140
Daily Fee 4,248 5,014 5,271 5,340 5,372 5,428 5,494
Municipal 1,321 1,586 1,742 1,778 1,794 1,818 1,848
Private 4,619 4,770 4,872 4,848 4,839 4,789 4,798
Golf Courses 10,848 12,306 12,684 12,788 R 12,849 12,894 13,013
Daily Fee 4,513 5,473 5,622 5,702 5,741 5,802 5,871
Municipal 1,461 1,748 1,894 1,940 1,957 1,989 2,019
Private 4,874 5,085 5,168 5,146 5,151 5,103 5,123
1983 1984 1985 1986 1987 1988 1989
Golfers 16.5 17:0 17.5 20.2 21.7 23.4 24.7
millions)
Rounds Played 391 403 415 421 434 487 474
millions)
Golf Facilities 12,197 12,278 12,346 12,384 12,407 12,582 12,658
Daily Fee 5,528 5,566 5,573 5,585 5,583 5,748 5,833
Municipal 1,860 1,881 1,912 1,912 1,926 1,937 1,963
Private 4,809 4,831 4,861 4,887 4,898 4,897 4,862
Golf Courses 13,084 13,181 13,254 13,353 13,436 13,626 13,738
Daily Fee 5,915 5,961 5,968 6,004 6,025 6,203 6,296
Municipal 2,032 2,056 2,090 2,098 2,122 2,135 2,166
Private 5,137 5,164 5,196 5,251 5,289 5,288 5,276
RS. 12 (5/90)