HomeMy WebLinkAboutPark and Recreation Advisory Commission Minutes 09-20-2007MINUTES OF THE PARK AND RECREATION ADVISORY COMMISSION MEETING
September 20, 2007
PRESENT: Commissioners: Fiemann, Krahulec, Knight, Anderson, Smith, Singer, Vanderwall
Staff: Blank, Miller, Evans
City Council Liaison: Bildsoe
GUESTS: S.R.F. consultants: Barry Warner, Joni Wiese
ABSENT: Planning Commissioner: Weir
PACKET INCLUSIONS: Agenda, 8/16/07 Minutes, Comprehensive Sidewalk and Trail System
Memo with Graphics, Public Art Opportunities Memo, Comprehensive Plan -Golf Courses Memo,
2030 Comprehensive Plan Memo with Draft Plan, Ice Center Proposed Rate Increase Memo,
Memorial Request Memo
1. CALL TO ORDER
Meeting was called to order at 7:02 p.m. in the Council Chambers by Chairperson Fiemann.
2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES
Chairperson Fiemann asked for any changes or amendments to the minutes. Commission Singer
requested that the Parliamentary verbiage moved rather than motioned is used in the minutes.
She also requested to check the spelling of aesthetically and correct as needed. Commissioner
Smith asked to have the word East changed to West on page 4. He also stated that he did not
make the statement regarding security issue and thought it was Commissioner Knight who made
that statement.
Chairperson Fiemann asked for a motion to approve the July minutes as amended.
Commissioner Singer moved to approve the minutes and Commissioner Smith seconded. All
were in favor and the motion carried.
3. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS
a. Athletic Association
No information was presented
b. Staff- Diane Evans
Autumn Art Fair
This years event featured 25 artists down from 40 artists from previous fairs
The festivities were held at Parkers Lake
Plymouth Recreation Department sponsored a local face painter, free to children attending
Abrakkadoodle, a local educational art company, sponsored a mural project in addition to a
to the City's Recycling Program.
Five food vendors and five musical groups contributed to the festivities
Estimated attendance was 3,000
Plymouth on Parade
Currently have close to 100 units
Participants include business, non-profit organizations, area school and Politian's
Parade starts at 1:00 p.m. on September 29, 2007
Pancake Breakfast runs from 8:00-11:00 a.m.
There will be activities offered after the parade in the Hilde area
0 Helicopter rides will be a new activity that will be offered by Hawkeye Helicopter Company
MINUTES OF THE PARK AND RECREATION ADVISORY COMMISSION MEETING
August 16, 2007
Notices are being sent to surrounding neighbors advising them of the activity
The rides will run from 10:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m.
Take off and landing will occur from the area south of the Life Time Fitness Complex
back parking lot
Rides will last from 5-10 minutes
Pricing is $35 for adults, $30 for children under 12 and free to those under 2 as they
will sit on an adults lap
o All forms of payment are accepted
Commissioner Krahulec asked if a background check had been performed in regards to their
safety record. Evans stated a safety check had been performed. The company provided all
necessary licensures, and appropriate insurances. She also stated other communities that
used the service have been contacted and received only positive responses.
Current or previously served Armed Force personnel will be Plymouth on Parade Grand
Marshalls.
They will ride in the tender car of a steam locomotive behind the lead VFW Color
Guard
Star Tribune Newspaper Article
Robbinsdale School received a grant to promote and provide healthier lifestyles
One of the few Minnesota schools that received that grant
The focus will be fitness and wellness programs
The goal is getting children more active, therefore the school is purchasing treadmills and
other active forms of equipment
Wellness and healthier lifestyles are topics that Plymouth Recreation is moving towards
and will incorporate in more programs for all ages
Fall Programs
Tumbleweeds Gymnastics has filled up and another class was added
Youth Sport Programs: After school soccer, lacrosse and football have been well received
Commissioner Singer inquired about the Women of the West Quilters Pieces of our Lives
exhibition and whether this is connected to the recreation department. Evans stated the group
is located in the community but is not a part of the Plymouth Recreation Programs.
4. REPORT ON PAST COUNCIL ACTION
a. Approved New Neighborhood Park Name -Woodland Trails Park
Approved by City Council
Chairperson Fiemann asked Blank about the current land purchase for the Greenway. Blank
stated the City Council authorized the purchase of the 70.8 acre property for $2,610,000. The
property was negotiable due to the landowner's death and the estate going to bankruptcy court.
Closing on the property will occur no later than November 15, 2007.
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5. UNFINISHED BUSINESS
a. Comprehensive Plan presented by S. R. F. consultant Barry Warner and Joni Wiese
The final elements of the comprehensive plan were presented. Highlights discussed for each topic
are outlined below. (Please refer to specific memorandums/graphics for complete details). All topics
presented over the last four months will be assembled for the PRA October meeting as well as the
Oct 17th Planning Commission hearing.
TRAILS AND SIDEWALKS- Barry Warner
o Current Conditions
Warner walked the Commissioners through the current sidewalk and trail analysis map. He
informed the Commissioners that these map graphics are quite complex due to all the detail.
Outlined and identified were items such as:
Road crossings in need of improvement
On -Road Bike Routes
Existing City Trails
Existing Grade -Separated Crossings
The City provides sidewalks for pedestrians to use in the downtown Plymouth area to link
local commercial and employment areas
Downtown sidewalks connect to local trails in Plymouth Creek Park
Several locations exist along roadways, such as TH 101 and south of County Road 6
Sidewalks within residential areas are not maintained by the City and therefore are not
included
Trail Plans Developed by Other Agencies
Bicycle routes developed by other agencies were reviewed to ensure that the City's plan
incorporated existing and proposed regional and county facilities and linked to proposed
trails in adjacent communities.
On Street Bike Lanes for Commuters
Commuters are higher skilled riders that prefer on -street bicycle facilities
Designations includes:
Employment areas
Commercial areas
Transit stations
Schools
Playfields
Regional/State trails systems
Longer recreational rides
On February 22, 2006 a roundtable meeting was held for commuter bicyclists to gain
feedback for on -road facilities. Comments included but are limited to:
Improve Vicksburg Lane, North of TH 55 with on -road facilities
Educate motorists about bicycle laws
Improve on -street facilities between County Road 6, TH 55 and Parkers Lake roads
Install bicycle facilities in Plymouth City Center
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Improve signage
Commissioner Singer asked Warner what the term bicycle facilities mean. Warner replied it refers to
provisions that accommodates off or on -street bike movement. Commuter bicyclists, who generally
have a higher skill level, prefer to ride on the roadway rather than on an off-road trail, due to the
speed at which they travel etc. Families generally prefer to be on bike trails. He continued to say that
bicycle sidewalk and trails will be addressed in two sections of the comprehensive plan; the park
section and the transportation section.
Major north/south and east/west roadways in the city were reviewed for possible on road
bike lanes. Considerations include but are not limited to:
Continuity of the road through the community and adjacent communities
Connections to regional and state trail networks
Proximity to playfields and schools
Connections to transit facilities
Off -Street Trails for Recreational Bikers
Less skilled and prefer riding in:
Neighborhood parks
Schools
Regional/state trail systems
Smaller looping trail systems for leisure rides
Analysis of Physical Conditions
Review of existing trail network to determine gaps
Determine if trail connections can be made to schools and proposed neighborhood
parks
Review of barriers to non -motorized movements
Existing railroad and roadway crossings should be improved
o Draft Plan
On -Street Bike Lanes for Commuters
Identify north/south and east/west routes through the city for on -road bike facilities
V Vicksburg Lane and Schmidt Lake Road are identified as key on -street bike
lanes
Schmidt Lake Road provides a convenient east/west corridor across northern
Plymouth
Vicksburg Lane provides a continuous north/south connection across the
entire city
Off -Street Trails for Recreational Bicyclists
Improve recreational bicycle trails by filling gaps in the local trail network
The City has a policy of constructing trails along both sides of major roadways
V Physical Conditions
The City is working with Minnesota Department of Transportation to plan for
the reconstruction of TH55 with accommodations for pedestrians and bicyclist
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To increase safety for pedestrians and bicyclists, improvements should be
made at numerous intersections or roadway crossings. (See Sidewalk and
Trail memo for complete list)
Warner asked the Commissioners for questions. Commissioner Smith asked to what level of detail
they should be delving into the presentation to identify additions or changes. Blank requested the
Commissioners identify as much as they possibly can at this meeting in order to wrap the plan up at
the October meeting. Commissioner Smith continued to state that he would like to see an additional
proposed city trail go up to Medina Road and possibly to the wetlands. He also suggested that they
look at a future crossing improvement possibly around 32nd and Dunkirk or at the stop sign in that
proximity. Blank stated that he will make a note and submit that to the engineers who will make the
most logical design for trails and crossings when they implement the project.
Commissioner Anderson asked that the following on -road bike routes be considered as inclusions to
the Comprehensive Plan:
County Road 47
Fernbrook
Old Rockford Road
Niagara Lane
Medina Road
Nathan Lane from Schmidt Lake Road to Rockford Road
He also suggested the analysis map include on -road bike routes that have already been striped
and/or signed. Commissioner Anderson provided the Commission with a list of those roadways.
Commissioner Anderson continued to say at the August 28, 2007 City Council meeting, David
Montivello and John Hagan presented where they saw projected growth in traffic and where there
was room for roadway improvement. They suggested rebuilding County Road 47 similar to Schmidt
Lake Road, which has proven to be more effective for all forms transportation. Blank suggested
having a brief discussion on each proposed additional on -road bike route. He then questioned if
S.R.F. would take each route back for analysis. Warner replied there are going to be issues regarding
right of way width, along with significant financial considerations. He suggested that the supporting
text point out the issues and challenges that are inherent with some of the corridors. When each
roadway comes up for reconstruction or improvement, it may be a more appropriate time to consider
these additions. Warner continued to state there are many different options that can be considered
such as signage, actual lanes etc. Blank informed the commissioners when staff and S.R.F. were
looking at the various scenarios; they debated how many corridors they should have due to
expenses, difficulty in design, and the need to do some retrofitting with corridors such as with
Vicksburg. A consideration was to offer a major north/south and east/west corridor for those trips
where people want to go through Plymouth from Maple Grove to Minnetonka, Edina to New Hope,
etc. or for those that are coming into Plymouth to a place of work. With that said, the focus became
the Vicksburg corridor, the Schmidt Lake Road corridor, and County Road 24, which has a bikeway
that comes in from the west to TH101. Blank stated that it may be more advantageous to look at two
major north/south and east/west corridors. Commissioner Anderson stated the county roads are so
busy and therefore he would like to see more bicyclists on city roads. Chairperson Fiemann stated
he sees many bicyclists going west on three routes, County 6, 24 and Medina Road. He feels that
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bicycle lanes or signage needs to be considered on these roadways. He also questioned how they
might deal with bicyclist using TH 55 traveling east into the Minneapolis area. Warner replied that the
reason most bicyclist migrate to TH55 is the absence of alternative corridors and that TH 55
expedites their trip into downtown as it is the most direct path from Plymouth to Minneapolis. The
regional bike trail being considered that will run from French Park and eventually connect to Theodore
Worth will be another direct route to downtown, but he considers this more for the recreational user.
Chairperson Fiemann noted the bike paths are better in the residential areas and notices gaps in the
industrial areas. Warner stated that as shown on map, those gaps are identified as potential trails in
the future.
Commissioner Singer stated she feels that as a City we need to serve our commuters and have that
balance with the recreational bicyclist. She asked Commissioner Anderson if he feels the plan
outlines a balance of both. Commissioner Anderson stated he also is asking for both recreational and
commuter considerations for many safety reasons. Commissioner Singer stated the need to educate
the motorist and population to make them aware of the need to share the road. Commissioner
Anderson requested that Commissioners visit the website Completestreet.org, which outlines striking
a balance for both recreational and commuter bicyclists.
Commissioner Krahulec questioned the work being done along Northwest Blvd up to the crossing of
County Road 47 and wanted to know if the project goes north of there. Blank stated he believed it is a
signalized intersection that is a county improvement project.
Commissioner Anderson asked Warner if the Luce Line at County Road 61 will be installing a grade
separated crossing and if the map graphic shows only the improvements being made by the City as
he does not see these noted. He continued to state that Three Rivers has discussed the possibility of
making that a grade separated crossing. Warner replied that Three Rivers had initiated discussion of
at -grade crossings and safety measures however, it became apparent Three Rivers could not handle
this project individually and needed MNDOT and other county agencies to assist with the at -grade
crossing issues. MNDOT has taken over and will more than likely implement a project that
standardizes crossways at four lane roadways. This issue is further complicated by the current law
and some public confusion. The current law indicates that a pedestrian has the right-of-way over a
motorist; however a bicyclist does not unless they dismount and walk the bike across. Commissioner
Anderson questioned that accuracy of that statement. The accuracy of this will be investigated
however; Chairperson Fiemann stated it remains a safety issue and should be something that is
looked at as plans are constructed. Warner will note this.
Blank commented that if Commissioners have other specific questions, they need to let the S.R.F.
consultants and/or staff aware and they will come back with recommendations in October.
Commissioner Smith noted grammatical errors in the trail/sidewalk memo. Page 4 of 5 should read
Fernbrook not Ferndale. He also advised that Schmidt Lake Road runs east/west so the north/south
reference on page 3 of 5 should be eliminated.
With no further comments or questions, the remainder of the presentation was turned over to Joni
Giese.
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PUBLIC ART- Joni Giese (Please refer to specific memorandums/graphics for complete details)
The City of Plymouth is in the process of enhancing public art within the community. Public art can be
defined as Visual art in a public place, art permanently installed in a public place. Publicly accessible
art that enriches the city as it evokes meaning in the public realm.
o Benefits of Public Art
Provides unique opportunity to enrich the lives of City residents and visitors
Engages and promotes civic dialog
Strengthens community identity, creates distinctive places and promotes economic vitality
Promotes multi-cultural/multi-generational understanding
Commemorates and celebrates lives of civic leaders
Interprets historic, cultural, and environmental information
Provides recreational opportunities and visitor attraction
o Public Art
Opportunities can be categorized into four broad categories -(Review the graphic for visual
examples)
V Streetscapes are primary community public space allowing a large number of diverse
range of residents to experience art on a daily basis, such as:
Street lights
Banner Poles
Sidewalks
Fountains/Plazas
Median islands
Kiosks
Bicycle Racks
Signs
Tree guards, grates and pits
Benches
V Parks are primary community public places that draw in a large and diverse range of
community members and provide opportunity for creation and temporary display in
locations such as:
Open lawns for Sculptures or Memorials
Signs
Shade or Picnic Shelters
Overlooks
Benches
Drinking Fountains
Sidewalks
V Building and Building Sites which includes both private and public buildings. These
structures can host a variety of interior and exterior public art forms. Components can
include:
Building Facades
Entrance Drives
Atriums
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Windows
Wall Murals
Hand Rails
V Infrastructures can be influenced by the design of public art. The art elements can help
interpret transportation, health and safety functions for residents. Infrastructure
elements that can be incorporated or host public art include:
Roadway Bridges
Pedestrian Bridges
Transit Shelters
Retaining Walls
Stormwater Ponds or Rain Garden
Roadway Pavement
Joni asked the Commissioners if they had questions or comments. None were provided
RAILROAD CROSSINGS- Joni Giese (Please refer to specific memorandums/graphics for
complete details)
Conceptual plans were developed for at -grade trail crossings of railroad corridors at the following
locations:
Holly Lane Crossing
Woodland Trails Park Crossing
Three Ponds Park Crossing
All three locations have informal trail crossing. Several of the sites have multiple informal crossings in
relatively close proximity to each other. Improve formal pedestrian railroad crossings at these
locations by consolidating the existing informal crossings to one crossing location and then enhance
the safety of the consolidated crossing.
o Site Evaluation Criteria
An unobstructed view of Y4 mile in each direction should be provided at the railroad crossing
Maintain existing drainage patterns adjacent to the railroad
Adjacent land uses were reviewed to determine appropriate locations and lengths of fencing
Locate crossings to make connections to existing or future trails and minimize site impacts.
o At -Grade Crossing Concepts
Concepts are based on the premise that the railroad corridor has been designated a quiet
zone
A pedestrian maze approach is utilized in all of the concepts to improve safety
The maze concept utilizes fencing to prohibit undesired crossings
The fence is configured to require bicyclists to slow down while approaching the railroad
The maze forces trail users to view the railroad, both up and down
Longer lengths in fencing can only be used along one side of the railroad to avoid trapping
pedestrians in the railroad corridor
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Black, vinyl -coated chain link fencing is a cost effective style that minimizes the visual impact
of the fencing
Railroad companies typically allow crossings to be constructed from wood timbers, concrete or
rubber
Concrete is proposed as it provides a mid -price, safe and comfortable surface for
pedestrians and bicyclist
Lighting is proposed at the crossing to increase visibility and safety
All concepts reflect fill material being brought in to provide level trail approaches to the
crossings
o Proposed Implementation Steps
The following is a scenario to get new pedestrian crossings approved and constructed by the railroad.
Introduce the City's desire and design concepts in a meeting with the Canadian Pacific Public
Crossing Manager
Discuss the existing conditions at the crossing sites and the City's desire to reduce the number
of informal crossing while improving safety
As part of the discussion and negotiations the City will likely be required to meet the following:
Obtain easements from the Railroad for the crossings
Indemnify the Railroad of any liability and provide proof of insurance for any future incidents
Obtain a MNDot crossing order. ( Additional research is needed to determine if this is
applicable to pedestrian crossings)
Construction within the railroad right of way is performed by the Railroad and billed to the City
Giese asked for any questions or comments. Chairperson Fiemann questioned if mazes are common.
Giese replied they are based on the sites being considered quiet zones so as trains travel through the
city they do not have to blow their horns at every crossing. She informed the Commissioners that
Wayzata is designing and installing mazes at railroad crossings. Chairperson Fiemann questioned if
bikes with burlies can navigate through the maze. Giese replied yes, though they may have to
dismount, as would other type of bicyclists. Another concern Chairperson Fiemann brought attention
to was whether two groups of people could pass in the middle of the maze. Giese replied that one
group would have to give way reiterating the purpose of the maze is to slow pedestrians/bicyclists
down. Commissioner Krahulec voiced concern about burlies possibly being too large to maneuver
through the maze. Warner stated that he will re -investigate and advise at the next meeting. Blank
interjected the city established having these crossings a quiet zone priority and will enter negotiations
with the Railroad as such to avoid whistle blowing.
Commissioner Smith asked if there were any mazes in the Hennepin County area that they could
visit. Warner didn't believe so, but will check with S.R.F. engineers.
GOLF
Blank advised the Commissioners that the topic of the City's involvement in golf courses need to be a
discussion item and is looking to get their philosophy as the language that will be used in the
Comprehensive plan, with the current focus particular to Hollydale Golf Course. Commissioners were
provided a memo along with pages of the 2000 Comprehensive plan that addresses golf courses.
Blank requested the following options be open for discussion.
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Continue with the majority of the language in the current document, indicating the City be
an active player in the pursuit of maintaining an 18- hole golf course for Plymouth; which
may include acquiring a golf operation
The City recognizes the economic difficulties in the purchase of an 18 -hole golf course; but
under certain circumstances may consider taking an active role in a golf operation
For economic reasons, future golf ventures within the City of Plymouth would be operated
by either a private industry or County Agency and the City would not get into the golf
business based on current information
It was also noted that Plymouth citizens are in attendance to discuss and give their feedback on the
topic.
Chairperson Fiemann opened discussion up to the Commissioners first. Commissioner Anderson
needed clarification regarding comparing two 9 -hole golf courses to one 18 -hole course as outlined
on page 2. Blank clarified there are two key components. The first being the actual golf course and
the other being open space. The two 9 -hole courses that have opened up exceed the acreage of
Hollydale in terms of open space and not in terms of the recreational golf experience.
Commissioner Smith voiced a concern that golf in Plymouth would be going down while the demand
is going up. Blank stated the golf statistics presented were secured in 2000 and were not re-
investigated for the current Comprehensive Plan. Per readings, he stated that overall nationwide golf
has slipped, whether that is true in Minnesota is unknown. Commissioner Fiemann wanted to know
what the ask was from the Commissioners. Blank stated the Commissioners need to provide a
recommendation to the City Council on the philosophy and approach to public golf and how involved
the City should be. Commissioner Singer stated she was not sure she wanted to see the City involved
in the golf business. She acknowledged the need for open space but was hopeful open space could
be found in the Greenway, Nature Canyon etc. Commissioner Knight asked what have been the
experiences in partnerships for managing other sports/sport complexes. Blank stated the partnership
between Lifetime Fitness and the Ice Center, as deemed by the City Council, has the Ice Center
responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of that complex. There are no tax dollars that support it.
The same applies to the fieldhouse which nets approximately $100,000 per year. These are two are
enterprise funds that the City Council dictated will support themselves. Commissioner Krahulec
clarified that key term is operations and not acquisitions. Blank concurred by saying all major capital
purchases probably will go to in front of the City's residents for referendums. Commissioner Smith
pointed out that the 2000 comprehensive plan had a 1999 survey (page 8.40) showing 79% thought
the City should take steps to secure at least one public golf course with 54% in favor of spending City
funds towards it. He felt those were decent numbers.
Commissioner Singer reiterated that she could be convinced to go the other direction if she saw
creative ideas and if a $25,000,000 price tag was not involved. Commissioner Smith asked Blank if
they might be able to acquire the property for less (with a referendum) and recoup dollars by charging
non-residents more than residents. Blank wanted to clarify when he wrote the estimated value of the
golf operation at $ 25,000,000, a resident called to remind him that the price could be lower for any
number of economic reasons and the City could take advantage of that. He also reminded the
Commissioner's, even if the golf course could be purchased for less it could still need to go before the
voters. Commissioner Anderson, in an attempt to find middle ground, brought up the possibility of
having the City responsible for 9 -holes and the partnership responsible for the other 9 -holes. Blank
agreed that are any number of possibilities. He also stated Three Rivers operates four or five courses
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and has the knowledge to run a golf course. The County may be a better contender than the City,
however, he does not know if the County has any interest. Commissioner Smith asked if numbers
could be obtained from Hollydale on how many golfers sign up for 9 -holes versus 18 -holes.
Commissioner Singer reminded the panel the question before them is answering the question is there
is a need to preserve golf? Chairperson Fiemann asked for other comments. As there were none, he
introduced Bob Burke, a Plymouth resident who came to express his ideas on preserving Hollydale.
Bob Burk, who resides at 4962 Comstock Lane North and whose townhome backs up to Hollydale
Golf Course had concerns with the Comprehensive Plan and the desire for the City to maintain an 18 -
hole golf course. He also wanted to share a case in which the Comprehensive Plan played an
important role in reserving golf property in the City of Eagen. For those not familiar, he stated that a
developer had wanted to rezone a golf course for residential development. It went to the Minnesota
Supreme Court and based on Eagen's Comprehensive Plan, Eagen was entitled to maintain and not
rezone their golf course for the developer. Mr. Burk shared this to let the Commissioner know how
important the contents and language needs to be stated in the Comprehensive Plan. He continued to
say he had the understanding the City Council had taken the position that they would not change the
PI zoning guidance for Hollydale Golf Course. Based on Blank's memo, Mr. Burk recognizes the
Commissioners duty is to recommend the City's involvement in the preservation of an 18 -hole golf
course in Plymouth. He noted the options that were given and feels that none of them have to be
adopted in their entirety. Language in the Comprehensive Plan could read that the City will be active
in maintaining an 18 -hole golf course and will look at the possibilities in doing so.
Mr. Burk, who is also the Vice President of the Association, let the Commissioners know that more
residents would have been in attendance to discuss this matter, however, they were only given a two
day notice. He advised the interest in maintaining Hollydale was ever present by the amount of
residents that showed up at the City Council meeting. Current homeowners specifically bought
property in that area based on the golf course. He also stated that he felt the $25,000,000 price tag
was an erroneous number. He sited the Eagen case; the Supreme Court stated the value of the
property has to be assessed as it is currently zoned and not valued as if the property was rezoned to
residential property. His investigation brought forth a value, based on Hennepin County land market
value where the dollars would be closer to $750,000 and the building around $160,000. Mr. Burk feels
that if it was sold as is, a golf course, the price would be substantially less to anyone who would want
to purchase it and it might be a consideration for the City. If Hollydale is allowed to be sold, The City
of Plymouth would be the largest city in the upper Midwest without an 18 -hole golf course. Mr. Burk
disputed that statement that golf as on a decline and feels it remains a very active sport. He is
advocating the Commissioners to consider options that will keep Hollydale open. He feels the City's
protection of Hollydale 18 -hole course is crucial and what will be written in the Comprehensive Plan
vital. Mr. Burk asked the Commissioners if they had any questions. As there were none, Chairperson
Fiemann thanked Mr. Burk for addressing the Commissioners.
Maureen Modrack, who resides at 4950 Comstock Lane N., approached the podium to reiterate that
Blank obtained the $25,000,000 price tag as if the property had been rezone as an R1 (residential).
This property needs to be assessed as it currently is zone which drops the price tremendously. She
also stated that many community members like the current way the plan addresses golf and they
have built their home and families around the Comprehensive Plan.
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Mark Kramer was the next resident to speak. He resides at 4715 Yuma Lane. He came to present the
case that the overall statistics show there are more golfers per capita in the state of Minnesota than
any other state largely due to publicly owned and operated golf courses. He does not want Plymouth
to be one of the biggest cities in the Midwest without an 18 -hole course. He said that if the City lets go
of Hollydale, it sets precedence for other golf course, such as Begin Oaks, to go as well, leaving only
Eagle Lake. He believes the City should be doing everything it can to maintain Hollydale Golf Course.
He believes there are many creative ways to utilize the course in the winter; such as partnering with
recreation to provide cross county skiing or other winter activities.
Commissioner Singer inquired if Eagle Lake was a 9 -hole or 18 -hole golf course. Blank replied it was
a 9 -hole with a chipping putt for children and a driving range.
Commissioner Krahulec interjected the direction from City Council is to determine golf's recreational
value and he is of the opinion that it would not be a tremendous loss to lose Hollydale as he believes
it is not a burden to get to other 18 -hole course, such as Shamrock. His feeling is he does not want
the City to be in the business of golf.
Chairperson Fiemann asked if there were any more comments. Commissioner Singer made an
inquiring statement referring to the Commissioners not having to make a decision at this time. Blank
interjected that a specific decision does not have to be made; however, they need to craft some
language to look at for the next meeting. Commissioner Singer proposed the language bulleted in the
2000 Comprehensive Plan on page 8.41 be drafted into the 2007 Comprehensive Plan. She also
proposed that staff look up the statistics in relationship to the growth of golf in Minnesota and the
upper Midwest. She suggested getting demographics of who play golf, both young and old, and have
those statistics available for the October meeting.
Chairperson Fiemann asked for a motion. Blank clarified the three bullet points items on page 8.41 of
the 2000 Comprehensive Plan is what will be drafted as the language for the 2007 plan.
Commissioner Singer moved the draft language read as clarified by Blank be incorporated into the
draft plan, with Smith seconding. Chairperson Fiemann asked to vote. All agreed and the motion
carried.
DRAFT PARKS,TRAILS AND OPEN SPACE SECTION OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN
AND APPENDICES —Diane Evans
Blank introduced this topic by giving full credit to Evans for rewriting this section. He then asked
Evans to present. Evans stated she will walk through the plan and get Commissioners comments
after each topic. She reiterated it is important to remember this is a document in progress. Since the
Commissioners received their copies, two updates have occurred since input from other members of
the Comprehensive Plan Committee was requested. The copy for next months meeting will reflect the
changes. She continued to say that Parks, Trails and Open Space is only one chapter of the overall
Comprehensive Plan. The goal of the City was to produce a plan that was user- friendly and easier to
read for the public. Therefore, the appendices become the larger document, which will be what
internal staff will use for their technical review.
o Appendices 7A
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MINUTES OF THE PARK AND RECREATION ADVISORY COMMISSION MEETING
August 16, 2007
Evans welcomed comments and suggestions as she bEagen to move through each section.
Parks
Commissioner Singer asked if page 7-9, tables 7-3 and 7-4 which lays out the needs for 2030, were
incorrect. Evans replied that table was only a placeholder, and has been updated. Commissioner
Singer then referenced page 7-17 where a line space needs to be entered in the Community Garden
section after the word land and before the word bicycle. In the Spray park section, Commissioner
Singer requested that an addition line read: This would be added to an existing facility or to a new
facility. Evans will incorporate.
Commissioner Krahulec asked if we had an archery range. Blank replied yes, however it is closed at
the moment. He continued to say there is a plan to rebuild and open the range next year. Evans
interjected that 95% of content is from the 2000 Comprehensive Plan with new items folded in.
Commissioner Singer wondered about the verbiage regarding Nature Canyon and the consideration
of athletic amenities. She was under the impression this area was an eco -system type park and was
wondering if these amenities would be of a passive nature. Blank responded by stating the top third
that is currently used as a land fill was bought to have as a future athletic field. The lower two thirds
would be used as the nature area. This was approved by the City Council.
With no future comments the presentation moved to Trails.
Trails
Diane advised the Commissioners page 7-29 was a place holder for the topic of golf. This will be
where their approved language from tonight's meeting will be interjected, Commissioner Anderson
referred to page 7-31 and asked if there was any difference between the graphic Boulevard Trails and
Roadside Trails and if they are used in the City. Blank explained that it gets into the width of the
boulevard with some roads having wider right -a -ways than others. Chairperson Fiemman asked how
will the S.R.F. presentation and discussion on bike trails will be included. Evans stated they tried to
include this information in service area table on page 7-21 in the Parks section. Page holders such as
7-35 will show the exiting city trails and sidewalks on page 7-43 will show the plan which will identify
all the recommendation changes and/or improvements.
Northwest Greenway
Evans directed the Commissioner to page 7-47 which starts the Northwest Greenway section. She
reminded the Commissioners that there is a separate Northwest Greenway plan. The information in
the Comprehensive Plan is to provide an overview of that specific Greenway plan. Evans then moved
to page 7-48 where she advised that an updated map with trail alignment visuals will be included. She
asked for questions or comments. There were none.
Natural Areas and Open Spaces
Evans stated the information in this section is old and she is not sure how much of this material will
remain in this section or be moved to another section. The planning department is working on some
of this and it remains an important component for the City. In recent conversations with Barb
Senness, Planning Manager, she has been told the parcels the City is picking up for easements for
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MINUTES OF THE PARK AND RECREATION ADVISORY COMMISSION MEETING
August 16, 2007
the Northwest Greenway are significant natural resources in Plymouth. She attributes this to paying
attention to the 2000 Comprehensive and Greenway Plan. Chairperson Fiemann asked for
comments. None were provided.
Evans moved on to the Recreational section of the plan which covers programs and services,
collaborations and partnership etc. Commissioner Singer inquired if this is were the wellness topic
would be addressed. Evans replied yes, page 7-66 will have future strategic actions called out.
Evans concluded her presentation by asking the Commissioner to contact her with further questions
or comments. The most recent Comprehensive Plan draft will be presented to the Commissioners at
the October meeting, with the caveat that changes to the draft will occur again, more than likely, at
the Planning Commission forum on October 17, 2007. Chairperson Fiemann directed members to
come prepared to the next meeting with any corrections or changes. Commissioner Krahulec asked
to have the packets with all the materials sent out Friday as opposed to Monday. Evans replied that
staff will make every attempt to accommodate that request. Commissioner Singer requested an
electronic copy if at all possible with Commissioner Anderson asking that maps be copied to larger
paper for an easier read.
o Appendices 7B
Park Facilities Inventory
City Parks
Playfields
Neighborhood Parks and Mini Park
The Commissioners were shown an example of how this section will be formatted. Evans added this
section has new graphics showing the parks outline, from an application called Landlogic.
o Appendices 7C
S.R.F. materials that have been presented to PRAC over the last four meetings
This material is in the process of being combined into one document and will be available at the
October meeting.
6. NEW BUSINESS
a. 2008 Rental Rates for Plymouth Ice Center (please refer to memo and financial documentation for
complete details)
Blank reviewed the highlights of his memo
o No increase in the last two years
o Reserve fund for the maintenance of the facility has declined
o Request $10.00 increase per hour
o Wayzata Hockey Association is aware of the proposed increase
o Increase would occur January 1, 2008
Chairperson Fiemann asked for discussion. Commissioner Krahulec asked why the ice center rates
can be increased with only a two month notice, but the activity center requires 18 months. Blank
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MINUTES OF THE PARK AND RECREATION ADVISORY COMMISSION MEETING
August 16, 2007
informed the ice center does not have contracts that go out further than the end of the year where as
the activity center and garden contracts can go out the 18 months. With no further discussion
Chairperson Fiemann asked for a motion. Commissioner Krahulec moved for the increase and
Commissioner Knight second. The motion carried.
b. Request for Memorial at Parker Lake Playfield (please refer to memo, photos, and landscape
drawing for complete details)
Blank reviewed the highlights of his memo.
o No current policy is in place. Have reviewed these request an individual basis
o Memorial Garden for Carolyn Weisneburger, a long time member of the Youth Baseball
Association
o Memorial would be placed at Parker Lake Playfield
o Recommendation up for approval
The Baseball Association is responsible for the total cost of installation
The Baseball Association will be responsible for the annual care and maintenance of the
garden
Should the Association choose to longer pay for the care and maintenance, the City has the
option to take over or remove the garden from the park
Chairperson Fiemann wondered in previous situation if a timeline was determined between the
incident and when memorials could be considered. Blank stated as there is no policy adopted, there
is no timeline.
Commissioner Krauhlec reviewed the maps and landscape description and was surprised there was
no mention of the honoree. and found that there would be only a small printed plaque with Carolyn's
name on it.
Chairperson Fieamnn asked if the City could review the plaque's size to insure it is appropriate and
Blank replied yes. Commissioner Singer stated they are calling this a memorial garden but there are
quite a few pavers so it appears to more of a plaza or structure rather than a garden. Maintaining a
garden is quite different that trying to maintain an entire structure. She suggested the verbiage in the
recommendation be changed to call it out as memorial structure and a garden. She questioned
whether in any of the City's policies there is reference for the maintenance for trees and benches and
who is responsible? Blank replied that is some cases benches already existed and people paid
money to have a plaque placed on it. It is understood that the City will not be responsible for them
forever. Commissioner Krahulec asked if they could wait on this until the Art Policy is in place and
Blank responded that the City Manager has put that on hold due to logistics. Chairperson Fiemann
asked if this would open up more memorial requests. Blank replied that you can't stop people from
asking when you have public facilities such as parks. Commissioner Smith asked when this person
passed and Blank stated a few years ago. Commissioner Singer stated that she is struggling because
it feels like an added structure to the park. Commissioner Smith commented that this may bring some
aesthetic improvements to the playfield. Commissioner Anderson wondered why no representative
from the Association came to the meeting. Blank replied that he had met with them twice and
informed them he was bringing this request to the meeting and didn't specifically ask them to attend.
Commissioner Anderson asked since there is not a current policy to address this issue, will there be
one in the future? Blank reiterated that it has been handled case by case and no policy has been
adopted. Chairperson Fiemann asked how this memorial would be used since it is downhill for the
baseball field. Blank replied the public would walk by it or step into it to view as you are unable to
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MINUTES OF THE PARK AND RECREATION ADVISORY COMMISSION MEETING
August 16, 2007
watch games from that location. Commissioner Singer moved to recommend the approval of the
memorial with the conditions as they are laid out in Blank's memo adding the verbiage of care and
maintenance of the entire area. Anderson second. Commissioner Singer made a final comment by
stating if even it does have to go case by case, she hopes going forward to get a policy in place that
outlines criteria and parameters. Chairperson Fiemann asked for a vote. Knight, Vanderwall, Smith,
Anderson voted in favor. Krahulec, Singer and Fiemann opposed.
As requested by the City Council, the following reasons were given as to why the Commissioners
opposed:
Commissioner Krahulec stated it would have been easy if we had a policy but barring that he had to
make a decision on its own merit and he doesn't care for the merits. If it were functional it would have
been different.
Chairperson Fiemann stated that memorials are fine if they serve some purpose or fit into the area.
He does not feel this memorial serves a functional purpose for the activities that take place in that at
area.
Commissioner Singer stated that she has verbalized most of her feelings throughout the discussion,
but added that she doesn't know Carolyn Weisenburger. It would have been helpful to know why a
memorial of 110 square feet be placed in her honor. She also believes that memorials can take any
for or size but this feels more like a public art display and she is not in favor of that without more
information and a policy in place.
Other:
Blank advised the Commissioner of the departure of the Plymouth Creek caterer, Suzanne's Cuisine.
Suzanne's Cuisine will be leaving effective 11-15-07, fulfilling the current signed contracts. An RFP
has been sent out to other caterers. Interviews and food tastings will take place over the next month
or so. There is the possibility of having more than one caterer in order to offer a variety of choices and
prices.
8. COMMISSIONER PRESENTATION
None was presented
9. ADJOURNMENT
Chairperson Commissioner Fiemann asked for a motion to adjourn the meeting. Commissioner
Krahulec moved to adjourn the meeting. Commissioner Vanderwall second. All ayes and the
meeting adjourned at 10:05 p.m.
The next meeting will be held on Thursday October 11, 2007.
Respectfully Submitted,
Mary Miller
PRAC recorder
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