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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPark and Recreation Advisory Commission Minutes 05-10-2001Minutes of the Park and Recreation Advisory Commission Meeting May 10, 2001 Page 24 Present: Chair Anderson, Commissioners Fiemann, Meyer, Musliner, Singer, Thompson; staff Bisek, Blank, Pederson; Peterson; Councilmember Hewitt 1. CALL TO ORDER Chair Anderson called the May meeting to order at 7 p.m. in the Council Chambers. 2. APPROVAL OF MINUTES A motion was made by Commissioner Singer and seconded by Commissioner Musliner to approve the minutes of the April meeting as presented. The motion carried with all ayes. 3. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS a. Athletic Associations. None were present. b. Staff Mary discussed the History Fest, which began Thursday. The School Days experienced some rain the first day. The event nuns through Saturday. The spring skate show is Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, May 11-13. May 18th is the Ballet & Tap Recital at Armstrong High School. All of these events will be on cable channel 12. The electronic billboard will be installed in the next couple of weeks on Plymouth Boulevard and 36th Avenue. Summer staff have been hired. There are a few positions to be filled yet. We have started to work on fall programming. The Millennium Garden groundbreaking is May 21. Singer asked Mary which beaches will be staffed this summer. Mary said East will not be guarded, but West and Parkers will be. Singer asked if we had set a date for the Chocolate Sampler. Mary said it has been scheduled for November 1 st. c. Others. Jacob Stein, 2930 Pilgrim Lane, lives near Sunrise Park. He had a petition from his friends requesting an ice rink in Sunrise Park next winter. He and his friends will help shovel it. Singer asked him where he'd like to see it installed. He thinks it could go where the basketball court is or where the ballfield is. Director Blank explained to Jacob that in August staff will present to the Park Commission the rinks proposed to be maintained in the winter. He invited Jacob to come back to that meeting. 4. PAST COUNCIL ACTION None. 5. UNFINISHED BUSINESS a. Millennium Garden update. Wording for a plaque that will be placed at the entrance to the Millennium Garden was shared with the Commission for their review and comments. The vision statement for the garden was also reviewed. These items will be displayed on boards at the groundbreaking ceremony. SINGER MOVED TO ACCEPT THE VISION STATEMENT AS WRITTEN. THOMPSON SECONDED. MOTION CARRIED WITH PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 25 ALL AYES. Director Blank announced that we recently received a $10,000 donation from Hedberg Aggregate. They also will provide 15% off on rocks, etc. In addition, they are providing technical expertise on the waterfalls. This puts us over the $100,000 mark in contributions. We also have a survey company donating surveying and staking. To date, we've sold over 600 bricks. b. Hilde Performance Center update. Two meetings have been held recently, an informal meeting and an EAW meeting. The Planning Commission recommended approval. Site plan approval is expected by the Council on June 12th. Al Hilde has released some more money for this project. c. Greenwood youth sports update. The Council awarded a contract on this two weeks ago. We are now waiting for signed contracts, insurance, and bonds. Groundbreaking will be on May 15th. We will be fencing the entire constriction site. This is a $508,000 project. d. Environmental park playground. Chair Anderson explained the role of the Park and Recreation Advisory Commission to the environmental playground visitors. Director Blank stated that this item had been on the PRAC agenda in March, but was tabled until tonight, to give PRAC more time to visit the site, as well as permit staff time to send letters to everyone affected by the proposal. Director Blank displayed the area where the children's playground is proposed. This area was selected, because it is centrally located within the overall park area, and it would require the least amount of tree removal. Director Blank then showed some pictures of the site. The property north of this site is undeveloped at this time. Thompson asked if any other area had been proposed for the playground other than the yellow square shown on the diagram. Director Blank explained about the proposed diamond interchange at Schmidt Lake Road, but said it's very long term. The property on the north side was taken for the interchange and for youth baseball/softballl fields, and a possible building for the headquarters of the interpretative center. There is no other development proposed for the park, other than trails. We have 35-37 playgrounds throughout the City. Director Blank then discussed Shiloh Park. This park has residential property around it, with the closest home about 150 feet away. A second example is Maple Creek Park. We're less than 100 feet from the closest house in this park. In the case of the environmental park, the playground will be 200 feet from the closest house. Turtle Lake Park has the nearest playground to this proposed development. Here the houses are 400 feet away from the playground. We want to locate playground near the houses for safety reasons. Fluidyne is on the north end of the proposed playground. If we move the playground further south, we get into the woods and would have to remove too many trees, and we would be placing the playground in an isolated area. We always try to place playgrounds in an open area, visible from the houses. Musliner asked if we had any issues about the entrances from the north and south. Director Blank said we always encourage parents to accompany their children to the park. Director Blank said he went through the neighborhoods looking for other vacant property. Other than the corner of County Road 9 and Fernbrook Lane, there isn't any available. The property imediately north of Fernbrook Manor is undeveloped at this time, but it's possible that a development proposal could come forth, and the City may be able to develop property there. The options at this time include postponing, looking at PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 26 acquiring additional property, or moving forward with the present proposal. It would cost 150,000 to acquire additional property and would mean moving the playground 150 feet. Thompson brought up the parking issue. Director Blank said our maintenance vehicles can get in on the trails which are eight feet wide. There will be parking along Berkshire Lane, 48th Avenue on the north, and 44th Place is available for parking, too. Meyer asked about the size of the yellow square and the size of the playground. The distance from the end of the trail to the playground is 400 feet and down 20-30 feet in elevation. The playground area is 115 feet x 115 feet, or about 20% of the yellow square. Fiemann asked about the zoning of the north area. Director Blank said it's zoned residential, single family or townhomes. Fiemann asked why this site was chosen. Director Blank said he received a letter from the homeowners in the Lundgren Bros. Development requesting this playground. Anderson asked how long Plymouth has had ownership of this land. Director Blank said we've had the southern half 12 years and the northern half about six years. Anderson introduced Sandy Hewitt, the Council liaison to PRAC and Mark Peterson, Superintendent of Parks. Bill Hunt, 14220 44th Place, read his letter which was in opposition to the playground. Some of the reasons for opposing the playground included limited access, no parking, and not handicapped accessible. He counted 10 slides, jungle gyms, etc. within the neighborhood. Only two children were playing at the time. He said the playground is always busy at Plymouth Creek Park, and it's nearby. He has lived at Fernbrook Manor for 10 years. Alan Litts, 14180 47th Avenue, is in favor of the playground. The closest park is Turtle Lake Park, but traffic on Fernbrook makes it very difficult to get there. There are many children in the development who would use the playground. Shirley Galvin, 14000 44th Place, has lived at Fernbrook Manor for nine years and has served on the board of directors for five years. She walked the area from the proposed site to Berkshire Lane. The trail winds through the woods up and down hills. She calculated it a mile and a half. This seems like a long ways to walls and difficult for children. She thinks the playground won't receive a lot of use. There are no children in the 102 units nearest the proposed site. She thinks it will be a waste of tax dollars, and disturbing to the wildlife. Instead of using trail, some people may walk between their units, coming very close to them and walking on their grass. There are six units in each building. Windows are on one side only of the building and these face the playground. This is also where the patios and decks are as well. This is a beautiful natural setting that should be preserved. The open field doesn't seem like a logical place for a playground. She requested that we please reconsider the location, or else compromise and move it to the far northeast part of the property. Director Blank said we are now proposing to move it to the far northeast corner. This is 200 feet fiirther away from where it was originally proposed. Lillian Wohlrabe said she would pass on making any comments, because Shirley Galvin said everything she was going to say. PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 27 Peg Matuseski, 14175 47th Avenue, serves as the Vice President of Savannah HOA. She is very excited about this park. Their neighborhood is five years old. Lundgren told all of them that this park was going to be built one day. Forty—six families live in the neighborhood and half of them have pre-school children with stay—at—home moms. On Thursday mornings, a group of moms get together to visit various parks. It's a mile to walls to turtle Lake Park. There are 60 children in the area with more on the way. At their neighborhood picnic, they signed the petition asking for this park. She understands the feelings of the townhouse people. She's curious about whether or not some of these people have grandchldren who would use the park. She said their group is pretty calm when they go to the park. They pick up after themselves. Anderson asked how she would access the park. She explained the streets she would take to get there. Sarah Seltz, 4800 Cheshire Lane. Her husband serves on the board of the Savannah Development. They have a Halloween party every year and block off the street. Two years ago, at the Halloween party, the host home put out the petition requesting that the park be built. Of the 46 homes, there are 69 children. Of those, 59 are less than 12 years old. Right now they walk to Nantere Park and Turtle Lake Park. Both mean crossing busy streets. They were told when they moved in there would be a park. They were very surprised to learn of the opposition to the park. She said she sees signs of evidence of deer in Plymouth Creek Park that are not being disturbed by all the kids that play there. If the playground could go at the north end, that would be even better, but only if it will happen sooner than later. Right now her yard is the neighborhood playground. Beverly Romfo, 14215 44th Place. She lives in Fernbrook Manor and is currently the President of the Board. At the annual meeting, a hand vote was held. Seventy—five percent of the people were opposed to the park's location. They have 102 homes in the complex with only one or two children. When they were moving in back in 1989, they were told it was going to be a natural park owned by the City. They want it left that way, or moved to the north and east as far as possible. Councilmember Johnson attended the meeting and said the property to the north is undeveloped at this time and might be a possible alternative. Katherine Hagen, 6345 Main Street, Maple Plain. She is not a resident yet of Fernbrook Manor but will be in a couple of weeks. She wants the park to be left natural and would prefer to see a wild flower garden. She says the playground will scare away the deer. Teach the children about nature. Anderson talked about moving it to the north and the expense involved. Sara Seltz pointed out on the graphic where she would like the park to go, but stated only if she doesn't have to wait too long for it. Blank said the park could be built there. The property to the north is the Fluidyne property and the trees would isolate the playground. It would not cost any more to move it to this location. Meyer said most people view playgrounds as an asset. This area has been slated as being in need of a playground. She feels that the park would be an asset. Fiemann asked how many acres the entire park is. Director Blank said 60. Singer asked that since the plan is to move it to the northeast corner, where would the trail go? Director Blank explained the layout of the trail. Singer said the PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 28 elevation is pretty extreme there. Director Blank said there's a path off 44th Avenue and that would be one entrance. Mark said they could draw a dotted line and say this is where the trail is going to go, but you end up deciding as you go along. Fiemann said he has a park near his house and it hasn't had any affect on the wildlife. He is concerned about the park being close to the townhomes and likes that it has been moved a little farther northeast. Fiemann wondered if anything else could be done about the trail that goes in to keep kids from riding bikes across people's yards. Director Blank said we have a number of situations where trails go between properties, and if it becomes a problem, we put fences in. Mark said we like to take a wait and see attitutude and make decisions if necessary. We try to be good neighbors. SINGER MOVED TO RECOMMEND THAT STAFF PROCEED WITH BUILDING THIS PARK IN THE PROPOSED LOCATION. MEYER SECONDED. MOTION CARRIED WITH ALL AYES. This next goes to the Council on May 22nd. Thompson suggested the Fernbrook Manor people visit with the Turtle Lake HOA about their park, because it's a similar situation. 6. NEW BUSINESS a. 38th Avenue planting request. Director Blank showed a couple of pictures of the proposed site for the flower planting along 38th Avenue. Georgann Bestler Wenisch, a resident of Parkview Ridge Townhomes, then gave a presentation on the project. She introduced Nancy Palmquist, President of the Parkview Ridge Townhome HOA, Kathy Osborne, Chair of the Environmental Quality Committee, and Tom Keller, President of the Parkview Ridge HOA. She stated that they wish to work with the Parks Department, Environmental Quality Committee and the City to develop a Minnesota native wildflower showcase garden on the two acre portion of Plymouth Creek Park connected to 38th Avenue. There are 78 single family homes and 50 townhomes that adjoin or overlook the site. The site overlooks the wetland which is adjacent to the Millennium Garden, the Plymouth Creek Center, City Hall, and the amphitheater, etc. She displayed some photographs of the site, along with a design concept and a list of the wildflowers and native grass plants that could be used. She also had affidavits of support by residents for the project. This site was previously shown on the City master plan as a parking lot for Plymouth Creek Park, and the recently approved comprehensive plan indicates no pending use of the site, although possible suggestions include another connection to the Plymouth Creek trail with parking and a sledding hill with parking. The site is officially part of Plymouth Creek Park and is maintained by the City and the Parks Department. She explained how the project came about. The three homeowner associations feel very strongly about the project. They would provide volunteers to help care for it. They contacted Prairie Restoration to discuss the pros and cons of a native planting project and to obtain an estimate of possible costs, which came to $5,830. They presented the idea to the EQC and received that group's unanimous support in April. They would like to have the endorsement of the Park Commission and a recommendation from this group to the City Council to implement the project beginning in the summer of 2001. Kathy Osborne, chair of the EQC, said the EQC is looking for areas to showcase native plantings, etc. This project was presented to the EQC at their April meeting. They are in PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 29 favor of it. There is a budget for the project, but they are looking for some additional funding from the Park and Recreation Department. The property is owned by the City and is currently maintained by the City. Watering is a potential issue, but the EQC heard that the City water trick could come out and water the plants until they get established. Meyer asked about the cost. The estimated project cost of $5,830 covers preparation of the soil, plants, seeds, etc. This does not include the cost of plant markers or benches. They want the City to fiend it at this point. This type of garden is one where once it's planted, there isn't a lot of maintenance other than to water it at first until it gets established. At a later time you could maybe add birdhouses, etc. Wenisch said the neighbors have really come together on this. Fiemann asked if the $5,830 would cover Prairie Restoration's costs. Wenisch said the quote covered site preparation, seeding, seeds, plants, and planting. Management is not included in this cost. Tom Keller, President of Parkview Ridge HOA, said they have total support of all homeowners on this project. The quote for the work was on the high end. There's room for negotiating. Thompson complimented the presenters and said this was an outstanding presentation. She said she wants to be clear on what they want from the City. Wenisch said basically that some of the funds would come from the EQC and they would like some from the Park and Recreation Department. Some maintenance would be needed from the City, as well. Anderson asked where staff stood on this issue. Director Blank said staff is in support of this 100% and the money is not an issue. Singer asked Director Blank about the acquisition of the park and about his comments that this may be a parking lot 10 years from now. She asked if the Commission could redesignate this as a natural area, without putting any time restrictions on it, or is this just interim use of this property? Director Blank said you could craft a motion saying that you are changing this to be a natural wildflower planting area, or you could say this is going to be interim use of this property. Director Blank reminded the Commission that no sitting council can tie the hands of a future council. Things could change. Needs might change. A future council can reverse a former council's decision. Mark Peterson was asked if he has been contacted about this. He said he is familiar with the property. He thinks there is a fair amount of concrete and nibble that was dumped in there and he's not sure if the split rail fence is going to remain. Wenisch said that no one objects to its removal. She said some of the asphalt is beginning to surface. Peterson thinks a path to the native wildflower planting from the Millennium Garden would encourage park visitors to visit the wildflower garden, too. He said natural plantings take time to come to fruition. It takes a while to get rid of what's growing there now. Peterson reminded the group that planting this area in wildflowers and native grasses does not exclude them from the noxious weed ordinance. There's also an area from the curb back that would have to be maintained. Wenisch said there's enough people who want this to happen that will help to take care of it. Meyer thinks the fence should remain as part of the project. She said the first few years, the natural garden will look rough. Singer said she would like to form some sort of motion that would make this park fit into the comprehensive plan. Anderson was concerned about the maintenance of it several years from now. Peterson said maintenance will be fairly intense at first. The first two or three years will require a lot of work. SINGER MOVED TO RECOMMEND TO THE CITY COUNCIL THAT THE TWO ACRE PORTION OF PLYMOUTH CREEK PARK CONNECTED TO 38TH AVENUE PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 30 NORTH BE DEVELOPED AS A MINNESOTA NATIVE WILDFLOWER SHOWCASE GARDEN. FIEMANN AMENDED MOTION BY ADDING THAT STAFF WORK WITH THE EQC AND THE THREE HOMEOWNER ASSOCIATIONS TO DEVELOP A PLAN FOR THIS PROPERTY AND SECURE THE APPROPRIATE FUNDING RESOURCES. ANDERSON SECONDED AMENDED MOTION. MOTION CARRIED WITH ALL AYES. b. Skate park proposal. Earlier this year Council directed staff to proceed to put together a proposal to develop a skate park. A couple of years prior to this directive from the Council, a private industry opened an indoor skate park in Plymouth. That park lasted about 16 months, but rent on the building was more than they could sustain. Then a non— profit group formed and made a presentation to the City Council. They wanted to use the equipment from that earlier indoor park. Nothing ever came of that. When PRAC put together their recommendations for 2001 projects, they included $50,000 for a skate park. The Council agreed this needed to move forward. Flyers were sent to high school and middle schools inviting youth to attend a meeting to discuss a possible skate park. An advisory group grew out of this meeting. They met recently and together with staff designed a tier one skate park. All of the equipment would be under 36 inches high. It would have seven different ramps, and two pipe rails. It would all be portable. It can be rearranged in different configurations. This is designed for an area approximately 100 x 100 feet. The estimated cost for the equipment is $40,000. The extra $10,000 would be for signage, benches, etc. Staff initially looked at the parking lot behind the Ice Center as a possible site for the skate park. This parking lot was installed with a concrete surface rather than asphalt. Staff has also looked at a second site at Elm Creek Playfield. There are no outdoor hockey rinks in northwest Plymouth, but one is shown on the master plan for Elm Creek Playfield, east of the softball fields, and south of the children's playground. Outdoor use of hockey rinks has stayed about the same. Director Blank said we haven't reached a point where we need another outdoor rink, however, 20 years from now, an outdoor rink may be necessary. Thompson asked about the proximity of the closest homes to the Ice Center parking lot. Director Blank showed that the apartment buildings to the north are about 800 feet away. He then showed some slides of the proposed location of the skate park behind the Ice Center, along with a couple of slides at the Elm Creek Playfield where the skate park could go. Reasons for selecting the Ice Center include: proximity to the Ice Center provides parking, staff, concessions, and the police department is close by. Opposition to this location includes: increased traffic to and from the site, possible disturbance to wildlife, loss of enjoyment of park when walking on trail, conflicts with swimmers at the outdoor pool, and noise. Director Blank stated that the Ice Center is centrally located within Plymouth, whereas Elm Creek Playfield is in the northwest portion of Plymouth. The fiirther you move it to the west, the farther away it is from the kids who will be using it. Directed Blank stated that if PRAC recommends Elm Creek Playfield, then PRAC also needs to direct staff to find a site in southeast Plymouth, too. Fiemann asked about the typical months of operation and the hours. Director Blank said in a typical year it would be open from May 15 to September 10th. For this year, it wouldn't open until June 15th, and it would close around September 5 or so, or when the kids go back to school. Hours may be 9 a.m. to 9 p.m. We are also waiting to hear from the Wayzata School District to see if we could use part of their PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 31 existing parking lot as a possible location this summer. To build it and recreate it on the grass area would require asphalt, and that would cost $30,000—$60,000 more. Fiemann said we haven't had any experience running this, and he wondered if we should test it in a temporary spot first? Thompson thinks if it's designed the way it's proposed, it could be moved elsewhere. Musliner said she thinks it should be at the Ice Center for now since it's a temporary stricture, and for the reasons staff stated including supervision, the central location, its close proximity to the police station, etc. Danielle Steele, 14835 38th Avenue. This location does not support what she wants in a central park. She thinks this is a very expensive venture as a temporary thing. If the City is going to get into this business, put it in a place where it can stay permanently. Liability is an issue. Without supervision, serious injuries could occur. More research needs to be done. Anne Marie Hennen, 1513 5 3 8th Avenue. She wants the City to reconsider placement of the skate park behind the Ice Center. She believes we're trying to do too much in too little space. Wildlife has been affected by the expansion of downtown development. Deer do not come back right away. It's not a good idea to allow 5 year olds to play with older kids. She imagines kids falling and being injured. If staff decides to go forward with the skate park she suggests that kids register each time they enter the park, that parents of users be asked to donate time to chaperone at least two hours per week, that if a participant is asked to leave for any reason, they cannot return for at least two weeks, that all participants must wear protective gear, and that it be limited to Plymouth residents for the first year. Ralph Durand, 15145 38th Avenue. He stated that he appreciated the community meeting Director Blank held two weeks ago. He feels the skate park should be evaluated after a year. He can't imagine that the 19 year old group will be happy with the same equipment a 5 year old uses. If it's going to be successful, he thinks we will need to have one for the young group and one for the older group. He is concenred that it would end up being expanded after a while. Noise will be a factor. If it's extremely successful, there will be even more noise. Why take the central park of Plymouth and present a situation that will create noise. Ballfields are built for noise and you expect noise there. The proper location ought to be in an area where noise is acceptable, like a ballfield. LifeTime is so successful that it's hard to contain. There's so much extra traffic. If you're going to test it somewhere, use Elm Creek Playfield. Tom Resick, 15160 38th Avenue. His main concern is noise. At the community meeting Director Blank proposed that there would be loudness standards and behavior standards. He has a grandson who skateboards. Even meeting the standards, it's a noisy proposition. Skateboards slamming down on concrete will be loud. Traffic is getting very congested in this area. Safety is an issue. He strongly urged PRAC to consider Elm Creek Playfield instead of the Ice Center parking lot. Karen Bass, 15150 38th Avenue. She is concerned about the noise. She fights traffic to get home from downtown, so she savors the quiet once she does get home. She enjoys PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 32 walking on the path. She is concerned about the safety of the children coming here. She realizes that we need an area for this, but wants another site considered. Ray Knoss, 15105 38th Avenue. He is strongly opposed to the skate park being behind the Ice Center. Noise could become intolerable. Not only will there be noise from wheels on pavement but the slamming down on the concrete when they jump. A skate board park is not compatible with the Millennium Garden. This is the crown jewel of the City Center. He feels that a skate park will ruin this feeling. Brent Hughes, 14910 38th Avenue, had questions about liability. Director Blank said the skate park would not affect the rates the City pays. How many injuries have to occur before the rates would change? He lives on the corner of 38th & Minnesota Lane. He has seen an increase in traffic with the development that has been going on. He thinks this is a bad combination. There will be more traffic. Doug Sanders, 14905 38th Avenue, grew up in the Plymouth area. He remembers a mixture of age groups having a clash at Cottonwood Plaza a few years ago. The City closed it down after a year and a half. He thinks it's a bad idea to mix age groups. Becky Griffin, 14925 38th Avenue, opposes the skate park. She thinks we're attracting people from outside our community, and crime is on the rise. Her car has been stolen from her parking lot. She's also very concerned about noise, because it's fiun to skateboard with a boombox. Chair Anderson said the City has been looking at this issue for five years or so. Thompson said our City is behind other cities who already have skate parks. She stated that anytime anything is proposed for teenagers, the reaction from the community is negative. We build things for preschoolers, senior citizens, etc. The teens are being left out. We have to find some good recreation opportunities for these kids. She is against the high school location, beause it's totally unsupervised. Her recommendation is to give this a temporary try. Director Blank said he called the high school superintendent about trying it in their parking lot. He hasn't gotten back to us. Meyer said we already have the fiends for the facility, and we could move it without additional cost. Singer said her boys are now in their 20's and they were skateboarders. She feels that the kids need something. She urged the group to go to the skate park in Brooklyn Park or Brooklyn Center and observe what goes on. Yes, it was noisy, she stated. She agrees that we need to provide something for the teens in a place where they can bike or walls. Chair Anderson says Hopkins has an ideal location for their skate park— beneath the freeway. Resick says this was very short notice for them. He thinks PRAC has had preconceptions about this and wasn't really interested in listening to what the residents had to say. Durand agrees that something needs to be done for teens. He thinks we're doing a pretty good job with the soccer fields, baseball fields, etc. He understands there won't be people standing out there supervising. Director Blank said we're not planning to have someone out there. He thinks supervision needs to be provided. What happens if a 10 year old is injuured by a 19 year old and the city is sued? Director Blank said the City is liable for all PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 33 of its property, roads, etc. The Minnesota League of Cities has developed an insurance program covering 36" skate parks, where injuries are comparable to broken legs on soccer fields, or getting a baseball in the face, etc. Just about every public entity in the state is insured by the League said Director Blank. To attract people to work for us we need to pay at least $10 an hour. Supervision would, therefore, cost about $10,000 for the summer season. Singer said moving it to the Elm Creek Playfield limits the number of kids that can get there. Durand stated that 100 kids a day is not a very big audience for this. If it was moved to the Elm Creek Playfield, maybe half the kids would still find a way to get there. Hennen said we cannot be all things for all people. She raised four boys. She never felt it was the City's obligation to meet their recreation needs. It was her responsibility to get her kids to things, and if parents want their children using a skate park, she feels it's their responsibility to transport them, even if that means driving to Elm Creek Playfield. She mentioned that 30-50 kids requested this. How will the shopkeepers feel about these kids hanging around the downtown area? This could end up being a dump and run park. Steele said she doesn't feel that the public's opinion is being supported. Fiemann said he has been on the Commission for a number of years and that the commission deals with contentious issues all the time. He has been persuaded by the residents that the skate park belongs elsewhere. Someone asked if any other central vacant lot could be considered? Director Blank said we own this parking lot. Is there pressure from LifeTime Fitness to put it there? Director Blank said no. Another resident asked if it was possible to table this for one more month or one year and investigate other places where we could have someone certified to supervise and trained to handle injuries, etc. Director Blank said he was directed to put together a program for a skate park this summer. Singer said the one in Brooklyn Park is next to the City Hall, the Police Department, etc. The supervision is not on site, but nearby. The experience there was a good one. Older kids helped younger kids. Parents were there with their young kids. Singer said the Commission does hear residents' concerns. MEYER MOVED TO RECOMMEND THAT THE SKATE PARK BE PLACED AT THE ICE CENTER PARKING LOT AND AFTER A YEAR STAFF IS TO COME BACK WITH AN EVALUATION. ANDERSON SECONDED. THE MOTION CARRIED WITH FIVE AYES. Fiemamn voted nay, because of the noise factor. He thinks the noise will carry too far. SINGER MOVED TO RECOMMEND THAT THE HOURS BE LIMITED AND THE SKATE PARK SHOULD CLOSE AT 8 P.M. FIEMANN SECONDED. MOTION CARRIED WITH ALL AYES. It was then suggested by a resident that staff get feedback from the residents as part of the evaluation process. It was also suggested that staff come up with criteria that will be used to evaluate the operation of the skate park and present it to the City Council at the same time the skate park is presented. A resident asked what that criteria will include. Singer PRAC Minutes/May 2001 Page 34 and Fiemann suggested noise levels, the number of injuries, attendance figures, traffic, etc. Staff said they will try to come up with something by the Council meeting on the 22nd of May. Director Blank said that at the meeting on the 22nd, the kids will be there along with their parents. Councilmember Hewitt said the kids need to be forwarned that they might hear unfavorable remarks by these same people that were here tonight. Director Blank said he has contacted a company that does noise studies. We don't have any scientific data on noise at this point. Director Blank may put a camera in at this site for security purposes. We may be putting cameras in our other parking lots at the Ice Center, also. 7. COMMISSION PRESENTATION None. 8. STAFF COMMUNICATION Director Blank needs commissioners at the May 22nd meeting to help with the skate park presentation. Anderson will try to be there. Singer will try to be there, too. 9. ADJOURNMENT The meeting adjourned at 10:35 p.m.