HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 08-23-1995CITY OF PLYMOUTH
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTFS
August 23, 1995
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman Mike Stulberg; Commissioners Barb Stimson, Virginia
Black, Christian Preus, Allen Ribbe, Linda Dja and Saundra
Spigner
MEMBERS ABSENT: None.
STAFF PRESENT: Assistant City Manager Kathy Lueckert, Director Anne Hurlburt;
City Engineer Dan Faulkner, Planning Supervisor Barbara
Senness, Senior Planner John Keho; Planner Shawn Drill,
Planning Secretary Susan Vasquez
1. Call to Order: The meeting was called to order at 7:05 p.m.
2. PBblcForumi None.
3. Approval of Age: Approved unanimously.
4. Approval of Minutes:
A. Minutes of the PlanningCommisc tting of jifly 26 199.5.
MOTION by Commissioner Dja, seconded by Commissioner Spigner, to approve the
Minutes of the July 26, 1995 meeting.
VOTE. 6 Ayes, I Abstention (Commissioner Stimson). MOTIONCARRIED,
MOTION by Commissioner Black, seconded by Commissioner Oja, to approve the
Minutes of the August 9, 1995 meeting.
VOTE, 6 Ayes, 1 Abstention (Commissioner Preus). MOTION CARRIED.
5. Consent Age: None.
6. Staff 12eonrts and Publi H "grin ai
Planning Commission Minutes
August 23, 1995
Page 172
Chairman Stulberg ,presented the request of the City of Plymouth to amend the 1995 -
1999 Capital Improvements Program to incorporate the projects and funding approved in the
May 23, 1995 Bond Referendum, and to recommend to the City Council that $1,000,000 from
the Community Improvement Fund be used to fund trail construction.
Assistant City Manager Kathy Lueckert gave,a brief overview of the July 28, 1995 Staff
Report which recommends that the Planning Commission approve the Amendment to the 1995
1999 Capital Improvements Program and forward it to the City Council for final approval.
Chairman Stulberg opened and closed the Public Hearing since no members of the
public requested to speak..
MOTION by Commissioner Black, seconded by Commissioner Oja, to amend the 1995
1999 Capital Improvements Program to incorporate the projects and funding approved in the
May 23, 1995 Bond Referendum, and to recommend to the City Council that $1,000,000 from
the Community Improvement Fund be used to fund trail construction as recommended by Staff.
ROLL CALL VOTE. 7 Ayes. MOTION CARRIED unanimously, and will pass to the
City Council for consideration in the meeting of September 5, 1995.
i u li',,W, M-FITIMERTM11=5
Chairman Stulberg presented the petition of Wuollet & Associates to amend the
Conditional Use Permit and Site Plan of the Minneapolis Laestadian Lutheran Church to allow
for the construction of an addition on the east side of the church.
Planner Drill presented an overview of the August 14, 1995 staff report which
recommends approval of the amended Conditional Use Permit and amended site plan subject to
the five conditions outlined in the resolution.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Mr. Ben Wuollet, the petitioner, who noted that he
agrees fully with the staff report, and has no objections to the conditions imposed by staff.
Commissioner Oja asked if the project would involve any additional landscaping.
Mr. Wuollet replied that two planters in keystone block, along with some bushes or
trees, will be included as part of the new landscaping. The area to be landscaped will be where
members of the congregation can meet and talk outdoors without interrupting the flow of cars
entering and leaving the parking lot as now occurs.
Commissioner Oja suggested that trees would be a nice complement since the
landscaping already includes two planters.
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Planning Commission Minutes
August23, 1995
Page 173
Chaimian Stulberg opened and closed the Public Hearing since no one present requested
to speak
M01TON by Commissioner Oja, seconded by Commissioner Black, to recommend that
the City Council approve the amended Conditional Use Permit and site plan subject to the five
conditions imposed by staff in the Resolution.
ROLL CALL VOTE. 7 Ayes. MOT10N CARRIED unanimously, and will pass to the
City Council for consideration on September 5, 1995.
C. Eden Trace Corparation/Twincorp Building (95079):
Chairman Stulberg presented the petition of Eden Trace Corporation, acting in
representation of Twincorp, for the approval of a FUD Preliminary Plan Amendment and
Conditional Use Permit to allow construction of a 26,828 square foot office/warehouse building
in the Parkers Lake North Corporate Center (Parkers Lake PUD).
Senior Planner Keho presented an overview of the August 14, 1995 staff report which
recommends approval of the amended PUD Preliminary Plan and Conditional Use Permit
subject to the conditions detailed in the Resolution. Senior Planner Keho emphasized that the
project in question is not subject to the City of Plymnuth's moratorium on industrial platting
since the Preliminary Plan/Plat for the project was approved by the City Council in 1988
Commissioner Preus requested that Planner Keho show him the distance from the
nearest residences do the two loading docks planned for the north side of the office/warehouse
building. He further inquired why all eight loading docks included in the project could not be
built on the south side so as to cause less impact on the nearby residents.
Senior Planner Kebo stated that the closest residences on the north side were 185 feet
away from the loading docks, even though the current setback for such facilities is 300 feet.
He deferred to the petitioner for a reply to the latter question.
Commissioner Oja asked where the 10 foot barrier wall, as well as the additional
landscaping, would be located, and what kind of landscaping would be provided.
Senior Planner Keho indicated that the wall would partially cover the six large loading
docks on the south side of the building from the view of the residents, while the landscaping
would serve a similar purpose for the two small loading docks on the north.
Commissioner Spigner asked why the current setback is 300 feet.
Senior Planner Xeho stated that objections over the past year or so from residents
worried about the noise level, the idling of trucks, and additional traffic, as well as the
unsightly appearance of loading docks located in other areas of Plymouth led to the
deternihiation that a 300 -foot setback would be the minimum allowable to avoid disturbing
residential areas.
Planning Commission Micites
August 23, 1995
Page 174
Commissioner Spigner asked why, then, would Staff recommend that she vote in favor
of project which does not follow the current 300 -foot setback requirement.
feet.
Commissioner Stimson added a query as to what the setback was before it became 300
Director Hurlburt stated that the first setback was established in 1995.
Senior Planner Keho added that there was no setback before then other than whatever
was physically obligated by the size of trucks, etc.
Commissioner Spigner asked, when, if ever, does Preliminary Plan approved by theCityCouncilbecomenullandvoid?
Senior Planner Keho stated that if no modification is made in the Preliminary Plan so as
to require its presentation once more to the City Council, then Council approval of a
Preliminary Plan never becomes null and void.
Commissioner Oja asked whether other buildings in the area have loading docks, and, if
so, how close are they to residential properties?
Senior Planner Keho replied that some other buildings do; in fact, have loading docks,
but none is as close to residential properties as the one planned in this project.
Chairman Stulberg it;troduced Mr. Mark Undestad, of Eden Trace Corporation,
representative of Twincorp, the petitioner. Mr. Undestad clarified that the two small loading
docks on the north are separated from the six larger loading docks on the south because of their
distinct uses. The north loading docks are for small vans and UPS deliveries, while the large
docks on the south are to load and unload semi -truck trailers carrying large loads of cargo.
Chairman Stulberg asked Mr. Undestad whether, if somebody really wanted to at some
future time, and using load levelers, could he not pull a truck into one of the small loading
docks on the north and use it for cargo.'
Mr. Undestad replied that yes, eventually, someone very determined to do so could
actually get a large truck into one of the north loading docks.
Chairman Stulberg then asked why they did not have all the loading; docks on the south
side of the building?
Mr. Undestad stated that this possibility had been discussed and discarded, since for
safety purposes it was better to not mix large trucks with small delivery vans such as those
used by UPS. He added that Twincorp and Eden Trace Corporation had recently been
discussing the use of some spruce trees to further screen the loading dock areas..
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Plar,aing Commission Minutes
August23,1995
Page 175
Chairman Stulberg asked whether die petitioners had looked at alternate proposals for
building the loading docks and, if so, why had the alternatives been rejected.
Mr. Undestad noted that the safety issue with trucking is a key factor. Even though
Twincorp and Eden Trace Corporation looked at two other sites within the same project area,
they did not find them adequate.
Commissioner Black asked whether condition 4 imposed in the Resolution, which
states: "All waste and waste containers shall be stored within the enclosure structure", refers
to in the building itself or in a separate building.
Mr. Undestad clarified that the condition referred to in the building itself, stating that
no additional outbuildings were planned.
Commissioner Black asked when the central NURP pond, the construction of which
would be requisite for this project's, completion, is programmed.
Director iiurlburt noted that whenever that might occur, it was an absolute prerequisite
for finishing this project. Therefore, until the NURP plan goes ahead, the Twincorp
office/warehouse building will not be granted a permit to start.
Commissioner Oja asked Mr. Undestad how he could be sure that residents close to the
Twincorp project would not have trucks there idling all night long and disturbing their sleep.
Mr. Undestad stated that Twincorp bad planned to operate the loading dock exclusively
during the daytime, from about 7:30 a.m. onwards.
Commissioner Oja inquired whether any significant trees will be sacrificed in the
construction of the Twincorp project.
Director Hurlburt observed that the Tree Preservation Ordinance does not apply for this
case since the Preliminary Plan/Plat was approved in 1988.
Commissioner Preus asked why the smaller loading docks on the north side could not
be moved further up toward Polaris and away from the residential area.
Mr. Undestad stated that to do so would interfere with the offices to be built on the
Polaris Lane side of the building.
Commissioner Spigner'asked whether the petitioners had considered putting up some
sort of a wall on the side closest to the residents.
Mr. Undestad stated that the petitioners were most willing to work with Staff on
in:reasing cover if that were considered desirable and necessary.
Chairman Stulberg opened the Public Hearing.
Planning. Commission Minutes
August23, 1995
Page 176
Mr. Mark Geske, of 2240 Ranchview Lane North, Unit 75, asked questions 1 through3, as follows:
1. Doesn't the Plymouth Noise Ordinance allow trucks to work from 7:00 a.m. to
10:00 p.m. daily?
2. In light of the 4, •nximity of the residential area to the loading docks, could that
Ordinance be revised, or some exception made in this case, so as to limit truck
loading to the hours between, for example, 7;30 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. only?
3. Finally, assuming that some kinds of chemicals are to be distributed through the
warehouse, occasionally a pallet can get damaged, and something is going to
spill, or whatever. Are there going to be hazardous chemicals? If so, what
procedures will be in place to avoid that these get into the drinking water, the
sewers, and the ground water?
Ms. Sarah Gilderhus, of 2230 Ranchview Lane North, Unit 99, asked, question 4, as
follows:
4. As a resident of the building closest to the loading docks, I am interested in
details regarding the landscaping which will shield the loading docks, and how it
will help to filter any noise.
Ms. Linda Menne, of 2230 Ranchview Lane North, Unit 86, made some comments to
be considered by the Commission, as follows:
As a resident of the upper unit which faces the loading dock, I will be seeing the
north side of the building all the time. I am concerned about the safety of the
neighborhood children. There are several residential developments in close
vicinity of the new building. There is also a New Horizon childcare center on
the corner of County Road 6 and Niagara Lane North.
Mr. Tim Jarding, of 2280 Ranchview Lane North, Unit 25, asked questions 5 and b, as
follows:
5. Wit t was the delay as far as the construction of this project goes? if it was
initially approved in 1988, why is it not being constructed until now?
6. Did Rottland (developer of the multifamily residential inhabited by Mr. Jarding
and other members of the pubic whom have spoken) know about this building
ahead of time? Were they informed exactly what it's nature would be?
Ms. Mary Burgess,, of 2250 Ranchview Lane North, asked question 7, as follows:
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Planning Commission Minutes
August 23, 1995
Page 177
7. I am concerned about safety issues, since I have grandchildren who live in the
area that will be affected by this project. My.concern has to do with the volume
of truck traffic, as well as with the removal of trees that will be occasioned by
the project. How will this affect the security of the children of the
neighborhood?
Chairman Stulberg closed the Public Hearing, and tequested staff members and the
petitioner to proceed with the answers.
In response to the questions asked by members of the public, the responses were as
follows: 11
i
1. Supervisor Senness ratified that noise restrictions are in effect between 10:00
p.m. to 7:00 a.m. However, based on concerts in other parts of the City where
loading docks operate, Staff is looking into the possibility of proposing more:
restrictions for docks in areas adjacent to residential dwellings.
2. Director Hurlburt stated that Staff could include some limits on the work
schedule in the conditions specified in the resolution if the Commission so
recommended. She added that there are other ways of increasing restrictions on.;
the noise level, such as if the City Council were to amend the Noise Ordinance.
3. Mr. Undestad stated that Twincorp wih not be dealing with hazardous materials
of any kind. Everything they will handle is biodegradable, nature -friendly, etc.
4. Mr. Undestad stated that landscaping closest to the building on the north side
consists mainly in several 6 -foot evergreens, and some three 3-1/2 inch caliper
trees (ash and maple).
Senior Planner Keho added that Staff has not given final approval to the
landscaping plans, and will continue to work with the petitioner on this matter.
There is some possibility that further grading would be done on the north side of
the building to elevate the level at which the t.-ees are planted to be above the
actual pavement of the truck circulation lane.
5. Mr. Undestad noted that Twincorp's business was not good enough in 1988 to
warrant the construction of the property at that time. Now, of coursei the
demand for that kind of property has increased considerably.
6. Chairman Stulberg reiterated that the warehouse/office project had been
approved since 1988. Therefore, any developers who presented projects
thereafter, and any citizens who had taken the time to investigate, would have
learned exactly what the nature of the approved project was.
Senior Planner Keho added that Planning personnel had met and discussed this
project with Rottland when that developer was seeking approval for the
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Planning Commission Minutes
August23, 1995
Page 178
residential units now most affected by this proposed development.
7. Chairman Stulberg requested the petitioner to show the routing of the trucks to
and from the loading docks, and discuss how this would affect issues of safety.
Mr. Undestad stated that most trucks will leave the facility east on 23rd Avenue
North to Niagara, then on toward State Highway 55 and Interstate Highway 494.
Chairman Stulberg asked if the design of the fire lane had been modified so as to
discourage truck traffic the'll'
Mr. Undestad stated that the fire lane was narrowed down :to discourage trucks
from going that way.
Director Hurlburt asked the exact width of the modified fire lane, to which Mr.
Undestad responded that it was 15 feet.
Chairman Stulberg inquired which, if any, trees currently on the lot will be disturbed by
the new construction.
Senior Planner Keho stated that very likely few, if any, significant trees would be
touched.
Commissioner Oja asked whether the question about the hours of operation of Twincorp
had been answered.
Mr. Undestad said that he believed the hours to be 7:30 a.m. to 6:00 p.m.
Commissioner Ribbe asked what the volume of truck traffic of the loading docks will
be.
Mr. Undestad stated that Twincorp management would be in a better position to answer
that question, but unfortunately they did not attend the meeting.
Having answered all the questions asked in the Public Hearing, Chairman Stulberg
stated that a motion would be in order.
MOTION by Commissioner Stimson, seconded by Commissioner Spigner, to approve a
PUD Preliminary Plan Amendment and Conditional Use Permit to allow the construction of a
26,828 square foot office/warehouse building in the Parkers Lake North Corporate Center
Parkers Lake PUD).
MOTION by Commissioner Oja, seconded by Commissioner Ribbe, to AMEND the
motion providing for additional landscaping, consisting of two or more evergreens of at least 6
feet in length, to provide year-round screening of the loading docks on the north side.
Planning Commission Minutes
Aagust23,.1995
Page 179
Commissioner Spigner asked that the AMENDMENT be modified to allow for greater
flexibility, rather than limiting Staffs options.
Commissioner Oja suggested that Commissioner Spigner propose a specific
modification, however since that would not be permissible because the motion had already been
seconded, Chairman Stulberg suggested that Commissioner Spigner might propose an alternate
amendment.
MOTION by Commissioner Oja, MODIFIED by Commissioner Spigner, and seconded
as modified by Commissioner Ribbe, to AMEND the main motion, requiring additional
screening for the northern loading docks of whatever kind Staff determines to be acceptable.
ROLL CALL VOTE ON AMENDMENT, 6 Ayes (Black, Preus, Spigner, Oja, Ribbe,
Stulberg); 1 Nay (Stimson). AMENDMENT APPROVED 6 to 1.
MOTION by Commissioner Spigner, seconded by Commissioner Oja; to AMEND the
main motion, limiting hours of operation of the loading dock to 7:30 a.m, to 6:00 p.m.
Commissioner Preus 'asked whether the AMENDMENT would apply to both north and ,
south loading docks.
Commissioner Spigner responded affirmatively.
Commissioner Ribbe spoke against the AMENDMENT, saying that the Commission
should live within the standard of the existing noise ordinance rather than trying to limit noise
on a case-by-case basis,
Chairman Stulberg noted that the AMENDMENT would not have the effect of limiting'
truck traffic, a possible source of noise, if that were the intention of the Commissioner who
made the motion.
Commissioner Spigner said that the AMENDMENT was correct as stated.
ROLL CALL VOTE ON SECOND AMENDMENT. 2 Ayes (Commissioners Spigner
and Oja); 5 Nays (Chairman Stulberg, Commissioners Stimson, Black, Preus; and Ribbe).
MOTION FAILED 2 to 5.
MOTION by Commissioner Oja to AMEND the main motion, requiring additional
landscaping along the 10 -font wall which will screen the loading docks on the south side.
MOTION FAILED for lack of a second.
ROLL CALL VOTE ON MAIN MOTION. 6 Ayes (Chairman Stulberg,
Commissioners Stimson, Black, Preus, Oja, and Ribbe); 1 Nay (Commissioner Spigner).
MAIN MOTION CARRIED 6 to 1, and will pass to the City Council for consideration on
September 5„ 1995,
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Planning Commission Minutes
August23, 1995
Page 180
Chairman Smlberg called for a ten minute recess in the meeting at 8:35 p.m. r
Chairman Stulberg reconvened the meeting at 8:45 p.m. in the City Council Conference
Room.
7. New Business:
A. Z&nWg Ordinance Revisions:
I
Director Hurlburt introduced the Planning Departmem's project for a comprehensive
revision of the existing Zoning Ordinance, for which the City has contracted with Northwest
Associated Consultants,
Supervisor Senness presented an overview of the staff report, stating that the City
Council, the Planning Commission and Staff lack the tools necessary to work under the current
Zoning Ordinance without a thorough revamping. She emphasized that the staff of Northwest
Associated Consultants, Inc. has extensive experience in working with different cities in
ordinance development and administration.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Mr. David Licht, President of Northwest Associated
Consultants, Inc.
Mr. Licht stated that his firm was greatly pleased to take on the challenge, in conjunction
with the City's Planning Staff, of updating the 15 -year-old Zoning Ordinance, a project which
will involve an enormous amount of work. The Ordinance is in dire need of very serious
modifications in order to set parametersandput the proper tools in the hands of the Planning
Commission, City Council, and Staff, thus allowing them to work with the new Zoning
Ordinance. Astable situation with established riles for all to know what to expect will create an
ideal atmosphere for development.
As an example of one area that requires very serious changes, Mr. Licht cited the Planned
Unit Development (PUD) Section. This concept creates an enormous administrative burden on
Staff and has clearly been overused in the City ofPlymouth, ,Mr. Licht stated that he anticipated
defining many more kinds) of zoning districts under the modlsied Ordinance, so that diversity in
development will be feasible while the administrative burden will be reduced.
Mr. Licht anticipated that he and the Planning Staff would be presenting a preliminary
outline of their plan in mid to late September. The next step will be to deal with PUD's as a
process, defining their future role in the City's planning process. What will make that definition a
challenge is reconciling the recognition of established rights and obligations while minimizing
the administrative difficulties.
Other areas which the City of Plymouth wishes the consultants to deal with, said Mr.
Licht, include administrative needs and general processing standards, among others.
Planning. Commission Minutes
August23,1995
Page 181
Mr. Licht emphasized the importance of having in -put from the members of the Planning
Commission. He asked the Chairman and members of the Commission for any questions or
comments regarding this important project.
Chairman Stulberg noted that modification of the PUD's was one of the cheaper items on
the consultant's proposal. Since the Commission has always found the issue ofPUD's to be very
complex and problematic, he wondered why the consultants considered the matter less expensive
than many others to deal with.
Mr. Licht replied that his firm believes that the parameters for PUD's do not really need
fundamental changes; what must be modified is the way PUD's are applied. That should be a
fairly simple definition to reach once the variety of conventional zoning districts is widened
enough so that the vast majority of residential and commercial districts are so classified under the
reformed Zoning Ordinance.
Chairman Stulberg asked if it would not be best for the consultants to deal simultaneously
with the issue of Northwest Plymouth since it may be interrelated to issues which will be dealt
with in revamping the Zoning Ordinance. He mentioned that one big problem he has noted over
time is the lack of continuity—of both Staff and Commissioners --which has led to a great deal of
hard work going to waste along the wayside.
Mr. Licht noted that all the distinct topics are interrelated and must be dealt with
simultaneously. The ideal is that the consultants present their total project in one fell swoop, so
that Staff can flip from page to page to be sure that all aspects are addressed, if not in one section
then in another.
Supervisor Senness added that one advantage of the current Planning Commission and.
Staff is that most members worked on the Welland Ordinance, taking that complex project from
beginning to end. That experience should be invaluable in helping them to deal with this new
project expeditiously.
Commissioner Spigner commented that, in her opinion, the County Workhouse and the
City's Public Works facilities should each be a separate zoning districts unto itself to avoid
dealing with special, and very complex, issues of Conditional Use Permits (CUP's).
Commissioner Ribbe added that he trusted that consultants would follow their own order
of priorities established in their proposal dealing with "Commercial & Industrial (C/1) Planning
and Zoning Classifications". In his opinion, that particular matter is critical.
Commissioner Oja noted that residents have problems with knowing that some
commercial development is going to occur near their residence, but not realizing just what RIND
of development that will be,
Supervisor Senitess noted that the Planning Staff has been dealing for over a year with
Ameridata residents who have raised issues with loading dock operations in their neighborhood,
particularly with what they consider to be noise and visual problems that those operations cause.
Planning Commission Minutes
August 23, 1995
Page 182
Director Hurlburt stated that many aspects -including, for example, landscaping -are not
dealt with in the Zoning Ordinance, but they should be.
Mr. Licht agreed, noting that even including such items as conditions in PUD's can be a
problem. They could easily be forgotten, and no recourse would remain ifthat did occur.
To facilitate application of the new Zoning Ordinance, stated Mr. Licht, cross-referencing
will be done throughout the document so that in reading any given section the reader can see
clearly in what other sections of the document related matters are dealtrivith.
Director Hurlburt stated that it was clearly a goal to assure that the Zoning Ordinance be
more "user-friendly", carefully indexed, etc.
Chairman Stulberg inquired how this process would affect the Downtown Plymouth plan.
Director Hurlburt noted, for information of the Commission, that the City was now doing
traffic studies to determine if the desired land uses would actually work. It was also looking at
public usage information, and transportation issues. Sometime in September, the design
standards should be available for Staff and the consultants to consider in defining zoning districts,
so that Downtown Plymouth could be designated as one special zoning district.
Mr. Licht added that Downtown Plymouth would best be handled as a special zoning
district, whether it is called a Commercial Center or Downtown or whatever.
Commissioner Black noted that the Planning Commission would probably have to set up
several special meetings in September. It would be good to discuss this and decide what day of
the week is convenient for most members.
The Commission Chairman and members stated that Wednesdays tended to be the best
days for meetings.
Director Hurlburt requested that the Chairman and members of the Planning Commission
tentatively reserve Wednesdays in September and October for special meetings.
Commissioner'Preus inquired whether some aspects of the Zoning Ordinance reform
would be applied immediately, or if implementation of the entire project would be held up until
the second quarter of 1996.
Director Harlburt said that the challenge was to see ifone or two aspects COULD feasibly
be implemented alone at first, and then go on to implement the rest later.
Mr. Licht said that the ideal would be to do so, but that the interrelationships of the
different aspects, and the possible negative impacts of partial implementation, must be very
thoroughly analyzed before recommending: any implementation whatsoever.
Planning Commission Minutes
August 23, 1995
Page 183
He further noted that there could be an important advantage in presenting portions of the
project for separate consideration. In attempting to deal with a controversial whole, the entire
project could feasibly crumble under the weight of opposition to the miriad of aspects, and it
would never lead to anything. One very ambitious city he knew of tried to do that, but was
unable to obtain the necessary majority of votes for approval.
n t •. a i t i I_
Chairman Stuiberg requested Director Hurlburt to provide some instruction for the
Planning Commission regarding the matter under study in this portion of the meeting.
Director Hurlburt explained that the Community Development Department would like
the members of the Commission, through the use of a "brain -storming" format, to provide
planners with:
Preliminary definition of which alternatives could and/or should be applied in the City.
Establishment of parameters reasonably limiting the scope of the study, and within which the
Planning Department would continue its activities.
Senior Planner Keho initiated the discussion by stating that the information provided for
the Commissioners in the August 16; 1995 Staff Report is very broad and may be much more
than what is of interest to them The information was selected to give Commissioners an
overview of the broad spectrum of issues and alternative solution% related to street de -5gn
which are being studied indifferent areas of the U.S.
All City Departments, particularly Engineering, Community Development, and Public
Safety, are interested and involved in the issues which must be ,dealt with when discussingstreetdesign. are interested and involved in issues dealt with in discussing street design.
Acceptable traffic calming. Central among the issues to be dealt with is what type of
traffic calming people would be willing to accept, The issue must be seen from the
perspectives of both pedestrians and residents, on the one hand, and drivers on the other.
Pedestrians, and many residents, find quiet, tree -covered streets attractive.
Nevertheless, most drivers dislike obstacles and would like to go very quickly from one
place to another with as few interruptions as possible.
Minimum street width requirements for Public Safety vehicles. Any changes in
Plymouth's street designs will also have to be made keeping in mind that the equipment
purchased in recent years by the Fire Department is extremely expensive, and has an
anticipated useful life of 20 years. Alternative designs must allow sufficient space for
that equipment to go where it must,
Budgetary constraints. A cost/benefit analysis of the different alternatives should be
made.
Environmental considerations. The environmental benefits of the alternate designs are
part of the, equation to be weighed as well.
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Augast23, 1995
Page 184
In evaluating possible changes in street designs, the City trust weigh the differentinterestsandlookforabalance. Comments from the Commissioners on what Plymouth
residents will be willing to live with are vital in orienting Planning Staff along the right path. Those comments will help them to further develop ideas and come back to the Commission inSeptember.
Chairman Stulberg then invited the Commissioners to informally make whatever
comments and/or recommendations that they might have.
Commissioner Stimson stated that she likes the idea of narrow streets and even of
sidewalks, on one side of the street if not on both. Nevertheless, if the streets are narrowed,
she does NOT want setbacks reduced. She wants the City to continue giving the sense of
openess which one now feels while driving along its'sreets.
DrectorHurlburt clarified that the narrowing of streets would not modify setbacks. They would continue to be as they are, and even though streets are narrow there would be a
great sense of spaciousness.
Commissioner Stimson added that she likes the idea of a hierarchy where streets inside
the neighborhoods are a little different from the main roads. She cited some of Minnetonka's
older areas as an excellent example: the streets are narrow, meandering and lined by numerous
large trees. That gives a welcoming, peaceful atmosphere in contrast to Plymouth's wide
streets.
Director Hurlburt agreed that any street design policy which is set forth must include a
hierarchy of residential streets, some of which carry more traffic than others, and of arterial
streets, etc.
Commissioner Black stated that cul-de-sacs present some special problems. Other
Commissioners voiced their agreement, noting that cul-de-sacs are especially prevalent in the
City and will have to be dealt with at some time in the street design study;
Commissioner Black also ;noted that she is concerned with parking if streets are
narrowed.
Supervisor Senness and Director Hurlburt both commented on one possibility which is
being given serious consideration: that of making on -street parking much more restricted to go
along with the narrower roads. They asked the Commissioners to comment on whether or not
residents would be ready to make that sacrifice.
Commissioner Oja observed that in her neighborhood, near Armstrong Senior High
School, there is no street parking on school days between 8:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m.,neverthelessthisdoesnotseemtopresentanyproblemtolocalresidents.
Commissioner Spigner,emphasized that narrower roads—and some other traffic calming
mechanisms which might lead to one car having to queue up in order to let another by --are a
pain. She affirmed that she does NOT want a City of Minneapolis -type atmosphere in
Planning Commission Minutes
August 23, 1995
Page 1g5
Plymouth. Peoplehave moved here to Plymouth precisely to avoid that. She stated that she
seriously doubted whether residents would accept it.
Nevertheless, Chairman Stulberg stated, one reason we ARE talking about narrowing
streets is to potentially protect the environment, and to reduce land area under hnperniouc
cover.
Commissioner Oja asserted that sidewalks were unjustified, in her opinion, since people
do noteven use them.
Commissioner Stimson stated that she considered sidewalks to be very important, citing
as an example one located on the east side of Northwest Boulevard just north of County Road 9
Rockford Road). People congregate there and the atmospbere is wonderful.
Another Commissioner added that cul-de-sacs may not necessarily need sidewalks, but
certainly some busier streets do need them.
Director Hurlburt asked whether the commissioners want sidewalks or not, and if so,
when and. where.
One of the Commissioners commented that she understood the City was only
contemplating the possibility of installing some sidevialks, in conjunction with narrower streets
than those required under the current norms, in select new areas of Plymouth which are yet to
be developed.
Planning. Secretary Vasquez, of 4330 Kirkwood Lane North, requested to be recognized
for a comment. She stated that apparently none of the Commissioners who had thus far spoken
had taken into consideration the function of sidewalks as a safe area for bus waiting for school -
aged children. Many Plymouth residents, herself among them, are deeply concerned about the
lack of sidewalks in some established neighborhoods, especially along some of the busier
residential streets. There is, she added, particular reason for worry during the winter months
when snowbanks along the sides of streets force children to stand in the street waiting for their
school buses. To make matters worse, in the months of December through February, middle
and high school students wait on the street in the dark during morning rush hour traffic.
Councilman Tim Wold, who attended the meeting as an observer, requested to be
recognized. That problem (of the need for sidewalks in some older, established
neighborhoods, to protect school children) is the motive for 8 out of 10 citizen complaint calls
he has received for several months now. There is great demand for some reasonable—and
prompt—solution to this situation,
Supervisor Senness cited the lack of any communication infrastructure with the school
districts—all four of them that cover distinct areas in Plymouth --as the major problem. Even if
the City were to set up off-street bus waiting zones for school children based on the 19954996'
bus routes, there is no guarantee that those routes would not be changed as soon as the sotdent
population shifts, or some new development goes in. That change could perhaps occur within
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Planning Commission Minutes
August 23, 1995
Page 186
a matter of months, and the bus waiting zones would no longer be anywhere near the assigned
bus routes. All of this most be considered.
Commissioner Ribbe said that he had reserved his comments until that moment, since
he had long -since made it clear he sees no justification for narrowing street widths.
Nevertheless, he felt obligated to inform the Commission that the previous night, in a meeting
of homeowners in Harrison Hills where he resides, he had requested to bear the residents'
opinions with regard to narriowing street widths and, possibly, installing sidewalks. Although
there was no concensus with regard to street widths, the vast majority of home owners affirmed
that there is a real need for sidewalks so their children could wait for the school bus safely.
Chairman Stulberg observed that many people with school -aged children have decided
to buy houses along winding streets—such as those in Harrison Hills -which are not necessarily
the safest for their ldds. Maybe they should have thought about the dangers before buying
their homes.
One of the Commissioners asserted that other residents might consider that sidewalks
themselves—or at least some things that might come along with their construction—could be a
danger. Another added that we most certainly would NOT want to turn Plymouth into "mini -
Minneapolis", with poorly -maintained sidewalks, crowding and gangs. Many left that city just
to getaway from that.
Commissioner Spigner added that when you come home from work, you don't want to
have to "work" getting there. No hassles—that is what most residents who commute will want.
Commissioner Oja intervened to state her concern for the fact that some of the
wonderful ideas presented to the Commission by Mr. Walter Kulash, in his presentation of July
26, 1995, have not been dealt with. She hopes that the Commission will see more of those
ideas incorporated into the next presentation by Senior Planner Keho.
Director Hurlburt observed that some cities mandate boulevard trees. If the
Commission wanted to make that recommendation, it would be important to have Forestry
carefully advise on the varieties of trees selected, and to determine setbacks for tree planting.
But certainly, if that were the wish of the Commission, it could be so recommended to the City
Council.
Commissioner Preus stated that his main concern in allowing any alternate street
designs would be that Plymouth have greater flexibility for its future development. Having that
flexibility, we can make Plymouth a very livable city,
One problem, he continued,, might be to get residents to accept that they might have to
slowdown a little bit to get to and from work, Will they be willing to make that sacrifice?
Commissioner Preus went on to briefly describe his experience in Adelaide, Australia, where
he resided for six months. Adelaide is a city beautifully designed and looking toward the
future. In certain areas of the city, there is no vehicular transit, something like the Nicollet
Mall, but without buses and public safety vehicles. It was a very nice environment in which to
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Planning Commission Minutes
August23,1995
Page 187
reside.
Preus added that he considers the Planning Commission should not only deal with the
new residential areas which have yet to be created, but also with existing, developed areas of
the City.
Director Hurlburt stated that Planning Staff would bring the street design issue back to
the Planning Commission as a matter for discussion in September.
Chairman Stulberg asked about close relationship between.. the new Zoning Ordinance
and the street design issue and whether the Commission should be considering both at the same
time.
Dire ,'m Hurlburt replied that, in the case of the, street design issue, the Community
Development Department is being pressured for a decision now. If we wait until the whole
zoning revision is ready—a matter of several months -then we will already have some
preliminary designs approved which, for better or worse, might not take into account all the
design considerations which will form part of the final street design proposal.
7. Old_B ussiness: None.
8. Adiournmod:
MOTION by Commissioner Sprigner, seconded by Commissioner Ribbe, to adjourn.
VOTE. 6 Ayes. MOTION CARRIED unanimously.
Meeting adjourned at 10:50 p.m.
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