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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 08-23-1995CITY OF PLYMOUTH PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTFS August 23, 1995 MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman Mike Stulberg; Commissioners Barb Stimson, Virginia Black, Christian Preus, Allen Ribbe, Linda Dja and Saundra Spigner MEMBERS ABSENT: None. STAFF PRESENT: Assistant City Manager Kathy Lueckert, Director Anne Hurlburt; City Engineer Dan Faulkner, Planning Supervisor Barbara Senness, Senior Planner John Keho; Planner Shawn Drill, Planning Secretary Susan Vasquez 1. Call to Order: The meeting was called to order at 7:05 p.m. 2. PBblcForumi None. 3. Approval of Age: Approved unanimously. 4. Approval of Minutes: A. Minutes of the PlanningCommisc tting of jifly 26 199.5. MOTION by Commissioner Dja, seconded by Commissioner Spigner, to approve the Minutes of the July 26, 1995 meeting. VOTE. 6 Ayes, I Abstention (Commissioner Stimson). MOTIONCARRIED, MOTION by Commissioner Black, seconded by Commissioner Oja, to approve the Minutes of the August 9, 1995 meeting. VOTE, 6 Ayes, 1 Abstention (Commissioner Preus). MOTION CARRIED. 5. Consent Age: None. 6. Staff 12eonrts and Publi H "grin ai Planning Commission Minutes August 23, 1995 Page 172 Chairman Stulberg ,presented the request of the City of Plymouth to amend the 1995 - 1999 Capital Improvements Program to incorporate the projects and funding approved in the May 23, 1995 Bond Referendum, and to recommend to the City Council that $1,000,000 from the Community Improvement Fund be used to fund trail construction. Assistant City Manager Kathy Lueckert gave,a brief overview of the July 28, 1995 Staff Report which recommends that the Planning Commission approve the Amendment to the 1995 1999 Capital Improvements Program and forward it to the City Council for final approval. Chairman Stulberg opened and closed the Public Hearing since no members of the public requested to speak.. MOTION by Commissioner Black, seconded by Commissioner Oja, to amend the 1995 1999 Capital Improvements Program to incorporate the projects and funding approved in the May 23, 1995 Bond Referendum, and to recommend to the City Council that $1,000,000 from the Community Improvement Fund be used to fund trail construction as recommended by Staff. ROLL CALL VOTE. 7 Ayes. MOTION CARRIED unanimously, and will pass to the City Council for consideration in the meeting of September 5, 1995. i u li',,W, M-FITIMERTM11=5 Chairman Stulberg presented the petition of Wuollet & Associates to amend the Conditional Use Permit and Site Plan of the Minneapolis Laestadian Lutheran Church to allow for the construction of an addition on the east side of the church. Planner Drill presented an overview of the August 14, 1995 staff report which recommends approval of the amended Conditional Use Permit and amended site plan subject to the five conditions outlined in the resolution. Chairman Stulberg introduced Mr. Ben Wuollet, the petitioner, who noted that he agrees fully with the staff report, and has no objections to the conditions imposed by staff. Commissioner Oja asked if the project would involve any additional landscaping. Mr. Wuollet replied that two planters in keystone block, along with some bushes or trees, will be included as part of the new landscaping. The area to be landscaped will be where members of the congregation can meet and talk outdoors without interrupting the flow of cars entering and leaving the parking lot as now occurs. Commissioner Oja suggested that trees would be a nice complement since the landscaping already includes two planters. P Planning Commission Minutes August23, 1995 Page 173 Chaimian Stulberg opened and closed the Public Hearing since no one present requested to speak M01TON by Commissioner Oja, seconded by Commissioner Black, to recommend that the City Council approve the amended Conditional Use Permit and site plan subject to the five conditions imposed by staff in the Resolution. ROLL CALL VOTE. 7 Ayes. MOT10N CARRIED unanimously, and will pass to the City Council for consideration on September 5, 1995. C. Eden Trace Corparation/Twincorp Building (95079): Chairman Stulberg presented the petition of Eden Trace Corporation, acting in representation of Twincorp, for the approval of a FUD Preliminary Plan Amendment and Conditional Use Permit to allow construction of a 26,828 square foot office/warehouse building in the Parkers Lake North Corporate Center (Parkers Lake PUD). Senior Planner Keho presented an overview of the August 14, 1995 staff report which recommends approval of the amended PUD Preliminary Plan and Conditional Use Permit subject to the conditions detailed in the Resolution. Senior Planner Keho emphasized that the project in question is not subject to the City of Plymnuth's moratorium on industrial platting since the Preliminary Plan/Plat for the project was approved by the City Council in 1988 Commissioner Preus requested that Planner Keho show him the distance from the nearest residences do the two loading docks planned for the north side of the office/warehouse building. He further inquired why all eight loading docks included in the project could not be built on the south side so as to cause less impact on the nearby residents. Senior Planner Kebo stated that the closest residences on the north side were 185 feet away from the loading docks, even though the current setback for such facilities is 300 feet. He deferred to the petitioner for a reply to the latter question. Commissioner Oja asked where the 10 foot barrier wall, as well as the additional landscaping, would be located, and what kind of landscaping would be provided. Senior Planner Keho indicated that the wall would partially cover the six large loading docks on the south side of the building from the view of the residents, while the landscaping would serve a similar purpose for the two small loading docks on the north. Commissioner Spigner asked why the current setback is 300 feet. Senior Planner Xeho stated that objections over the past year or so from residents worried about the noise level, the idling of trucks, and additional traffic, as well as the unsightly appearance of loading docks located in other areas of Plymouth led to the deternihiation that a 300 -foot setback would be the minimum allowable to avoid disturbing residential areas. Planning Commission Micites August 23, 1995 Page 174 Commissioner Spigner asked why, then, would Staff recommend that she vote in favor of project which does not follow the current 300 -foot setback requirement. feet. Commissioner Stimson added a query as to what the setback was before it became 300 Director Hurlburt stated that the first setback was established in 1995. Senior Planner Keho added that there was no setback before then other than whatever was physically obligated by the size of trucks, etc. Commissioner Spigner asked, when, if ever, does Preliminary Plan approved by theCityCouncilbecomenullandvoid? Senior Planner Keho stated that if no modification is made in the Preliminary Plan so as to require its presentation once more to the City Council, then Council approval of a Preliminary Plan never becomes null and void. Commissioner Oja asked whether other buildings in the area have loading docks, and, if so, how close are they to residential properties? Senior Planner Keho replied that some other buildings do; in fact, have loading docks, but none is as close to residential properties as the one planned in this project. Chairman Stulberg it;troduced Mr. Mark Undestad, of Eden Trace Corporation, representative of Twincorp, the petitioner. Mr. Undestad clarified that the two small loading docks on the north are separated from the six larger loading docks on the south because of their distinct uses. The north loading docks are for small vans and UPS deliveries, while the large docks on the south are to load and unload semi -truck trailers carrying large loads of cargo. Chairman Stulberg asked Mr. Undestad whether, if somebody really wanted to at some future time, and using load levelers, could he not pull a truck into one of the small loading docks on the north and use it for cargo.' Mr. Undestad replied that yes, eventually, someone very determined to do so could actually get a large truck into one of the north loading docks. Chairman Stulberg then asked why they did not have all the loading; docks on the south side of the building? Mr. Undestad stated that this possibility had been discussed and discarded, since for safety purposes it was better to not mix large trucks with small delivery vans such as those used by UPS. He added that Twincorp and Eden Trace Corporation had recently been discussing the use of some spruce trees to further screen the loading dock areas.. a Plar,aing Commission Minutes August23,1995 Page 175 Chairman Stulberg asked whether die petitioners had looked at alternate proposals for building the loading docks and, if so, why had the alternatives been rejected. Mr. Undestad noted that the safety issue with trucking is a key factor. Even though Twincorp and Eden Trace Corporation looked at two other sites within the same project area, they did not find them adequate. Commissioner Black asked whether condition 4 imposed in the Resolution, which states: "All waste and waste containers shall be stored within the enclosure structure", refers to in the building itself or in a separate building. Mr. Undestad clarified that the condition referred to in the building itself, stating that no additional outbuildings were planned. Commissioner Black asked when the central NURP pond, the construction of which would be requisite for this project's, completion, is programmed. Director iiurlburt noted that whenever that might occur, it was an absolute prerequisite for finishing this project. Therefore, until the NURP plan goes ahead, the Twincorp office/warehouse building will not be granted a permit to start. Commissioner Oja asked Mr. Undestad how he could be sure that residents close to the Twincorp project would not have trucks there idling all night long and disturbing their sleep. Mr. Undestad stated that Twincorp bad planned to operate the loading dock exclusively during the daytime, from about 7:30 a.m. onwards. Commissioner Oja inquired whether any significant trees will be sacrificed in the construction of the Twincorp project. Director Hurlburt observed that the Tree Preservation Ordinance does not apply for this case since the Preliminary Plan/Plat was approved in 1988. Commissioner Preus asked why the smaller loading docks on the north side could not be moved further up toward Polaris and away from the residential area. Mr. Undestad stated that to do so would interfere with the offices to be built on the Polaris Lane side of the building. Commissioner Spigner'asked whether the petitioners had considered putting up some sort of a wall on the side closest to the residents. Mr. Undestad stated that the petitioners were most willing to work with Staff on in:reasing cover if that were considered desirable and necessary. Chairman Stulberg opened the Public Hearing. Planning. Commission Minutes August23, 1995 Page 176 Mr. Mark Geske, of 2240 Ranchview Lane North, Unit 75, asked questions 1 through3, as follows: 1. Doesn't the Plymouth Noise Ordinance allow trucks to work from 7:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m. daily? 2. In light of the 4, •nximity of the residential area to the loading docks, could that Ordinance be revised, or some exception made in this case, so as to limit truck loading to the hours between, for example, 7;30 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. only? 3. Finally, assuming that some kinds of chemicals are to be distributed through the warehouse, occasionally a pallet can get damaged, and something is going to spill, or whatever. Are there going to be hazardous chemicals? If so, what procedures will be in place to avoid that these get into the drinking water, the sewers, and the ground water? Ms. Sarah Gilderhus, of 2230 Ranchview Lane North, Unit 99, asked, question 4, as follows: 4. As a resident of the building closest to the loading docks, I am interested in details regarding the landscaping which will shield the loading docks, and how it will help to filter any noise. Ms. Linda Menne, of 2230 Ranchview Lane North, Unit 86, made some comments to be considered by the Commission, as follows: As a resident of the upper unit which faces the loading dock, I will be seeing the north side of the building all the time. I am concerned about the safety of the neighborhood children. There are several residential developments in close vicinity of the new building. There is also a New Horizon childcare center on the corner of County Road 6 and Niagara Lane North. Mr. Tim Jarding, of 2280 Ranchview Lane North, Unit 25, asked questions 5 and b, as follows: 5. Wit t was the delay as far as the construction of this project goes? if it was initially approved in 1988, why is it not being constructed until now? 6. Did Rottland (developer of the multifamily residential inhabited by Mr. Jarding and other members of the pubic whom have spoken) know about this building ahead of time? Were they informed exactly what it's nature would be? Ms. Mary Burgess,, of 2250 Ranchview Lane North, asked question 7, as follows: a Planning Commission Minutes August 23, 1995 Page 177 7. I am concerned about safety issues, since I have grandchildren who live in the area that will be affected by this project. My.concern has to do with the volume of truck traffic, as well as with the removal of trees that will be occasioned by the project. How will this affect the security of the children of the neighborhood? Chairman Stulberg closed the Public Hearing, and tequested staff members and the petitioner to proceed with the answers. In response to the questions asked by members of the public, the responses were as follows: 11 i 1. Supervisor Senness ratified that noise restrictions are in effect between 10:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. However, based on concerts in other parts of the City where loading docks operate, Staff is looking into the possibility of proposing more: restrictions for docks in areas adjacent to residential dwellings. 2. Director Hurlburt stated that Staff could include some limits on the work schedule in the conditions specified in the resolution if the Commission so recommended. She added that there are other ways of increasing restrictions on.; the noise level, such as if the City Council were to amend the Noise Ordinance. 3. Mr. Undestad stated that Twincorp wih not be dealing with hazardous materials of any kind. Everything they will handle is biodegradable, nature -friendly, etc. 4. Mr. Undestad stated that landscaping closest to the building on the north side consists mainly in several 6 -foot evergreens, and some three 3-1/2 inch caliper trees (ash and maple). Senior Planner Keho added that Staff has not given final approval to the landscaping plans, and will continue to work with the petitioner on this matter. There is some possibility that further grading would be done on the north side of the building to elevate the level at which the t.-ees are planted to be above the actual pavement of the truck circulation lane. 5. Mr. Undestad noted that Twincorp's business was not good enough in 1988 to warrant the construction of the property at that time. Now, of coursei the demand for that kind of property has increased considerably. 6. Chairman Stulberg reiterated that the warehouse/office project had been approved since 1988. Therefore, any developers who presented projects thereafter, and any citizens who had taken the time to investigate, would have learned exactly what the nature of the approved project was. Senior Planner Keho added that Planning personnel had met and discussed this project with Rottland when that developer was seeking approval for the 0 Planning Commission Minutes August23, 1995 Page 178 residential units now most affected by this proposed development. 7. Chairman Stulberg requested the petitioner to show the routing of the trucks to and from the loading docks, and discuss how this would affect issues of safety. Mr. Undestad stated that most trucks will leave the facility east on 23rd Avenue North to Niagara, then on toward State Highway 55 and Interstate Highway 494. Chairman Stulberg asked if the design of the fire lane had been modified so as to discourage truck traffic the'll' Mr. Undestad stated that the fire lane was narrowed down :to discourage trucks from going that way. Director Hurlburt asked the exact width of the modified fire lane, to which Mr. Undestad responded that it was 15 feet. Chairman Stulberg inquired which, if any, trees currently on the lot will be disturbed by the new construction. Senior Planner Keho stated that very likely few, if any, significant trees would be touched. Commissioner Oja asked whether the question about the hours of operation of Twincorp had been answered. Mr. Undestad said that he believed the hours to be 7:30 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. Commissioner Ribbe asked what the volume of truck traffic of the loading docks will be. Mr. Undestad stated that Twincorp management would be in a better position to answer that question, but unfortunately they did not attend the meeting. Having answered all the questions asked in the Public Hearing, Chairman Stulberg stated that a motion would be in order. MOTION by Commissioner Stimson, seconded by Commissioner Spigner, to approve a PUD Preliminary Plan Amendment and Conditional Use Permit to allow the construction of a 26,828 square foot office/warehouse building in the Parkers Lake North Corporate Center Parkers Lake PUD). MOTION by Commissioner Oja, seconded by Commissioner Ribbe, to AMEND the motion providing for additional landscaping, consisting of two or more evergreens of at least 6 feet in length, to provide year-round screening of the loading docks on the north side. Planning Commission Minutes Aagust23,.1995 Page 179 Commissioner Spigner asked that the AMENDMENT be modified to allow for greater flexibility, rather than limiting Staffs options. Commissioner Oja suggested that Commissioner Spigner propose a specific modification, however since that would not be permissible because the motion had already been seconded, Chairman Stulberg suggested that Commissioner Spigner might propose an alternate amendment. MOTION by Commissioner Oja, MODIFIED by Commissioner Spigner, and seconded as modified by Commissioner Ribbe, to AMEND the main motion, requiring additional screening for the northern loading docks of whatever kind Staff determines to be acceptable. ROLL CALL VOTE ON AMENDMENT, 6 Ayes (Black, Preus, Spigner, Oja, Ribbe, Stulberg); 1 Nay (Stimson). AMENDMENT APPROVED 6 to 1. MOTION by Commissioner Spigner, seconded by Commissioner Oja; to AMEND the main motion, limiting hours of operation of the loading dock to 7:30 a.m, to 6:00 p.m. Commissioner Preus 'asked whether the AMENDMENT would apply to both north and , south loading docks. Commissioner Spigner responded affirmatively. Commissioner Ribbe spoke against the AMENDMENT, saying that the Commission should live within the standard of the existing noise ordinance rather than trying to limit noise on a case-by-case basis, Chairman Stulberg noted that the AMENDMENT would not have the effect of limiting' truck traffic, a possible source of noise, if that were the intention of the Commissioner who made the motion. Commissioner Spigner said that the AMENDMENT was correct as stated. ROLL CALL VOTE ON SECOND AMENDMENT. 2 Ayes (Commissioners Spigner and Oja); 5 Nays (Chairman Stulberg, Commissioners Stimson, Black, Preus; and Ribbe). MOTION FAILED 2 to 5. MOTION by Commissioner Oja to AMEND the main motion, requiring additional landscaping along the 10 -font wall which will screen the loading docks on the south side. MOTION FAILED for lack of a second. ROLL CALL VOTE ON MAIN MOTION. 6 Ayes (Chairman Stulberg, Commissioners Stimson, Black, Preus, Oja, and Ribbe); 1 Nay (Commissioner Spigner). MAIN MOTION CARRIED 6 to 1, and will pass to the City Council for consideration on September 5„ 1995, a Planning Commission Minutes August23, 1995 Page 180 Chairman Smlberg called for a ten minute recess in the meeting at 8:35 p.m. r Chairman Stulberg reconvened the meeting at 8:45 p.m. in the City Council Conference Room. 7. New Business: A. Z&nWg Ordinance Revisions: I Director Hurlburt introduced the Planning Departmem's project for a comprehensive revision of the existing Zoning Ordinance, for which the City has contracted with Northwest Associated Consultants, Supervisor Senness presented an overview of the staff report, stating that the City Council, the Planning Commission and Staff lack the tools necessary to work under the current Zoning Ordinance without a thorough revamping. She emphasized that the staff of Northwest Associated Consultants, Inc. has extensive experience in working with different cities in ordinance development and administration. Chairman Stulberg introduced Mr. David Licht, President of Northwest Associated Consultants, Inc. Mr. Licht stated that his firm was greatly pleased to take on the challenge, in conjunction with the City's Planning Staff, of updating the 15 -year-old Zoning Ordinance, a project which will involve an enormous amount of work. The Ordinance is in dire need of very serious modifications in order to set parametersandput the proper tools in the hands of the Planning Commission, City Council, and Staff, thus allowing them to work with the new Zoning Ordinance. Astable situation with established riles for all to know what to expect will create an ideal atmosphere for development. As an example of one area that requires very serious changes, Mr. Licht cited the Planned Unit Development (PUD) Section. This concept creates an enormous administrative burden on Staff and has clearly been overused in the City ofPlymouth, ,Mr. Licht stated that he anticipated defining many more kinds) of zoning districts under the modlsied Ordinance, so that diversity in development will be feasible while the administrative burden will be reduced. Mr. Licht anticipated that he and the Planning Staff would be presenting a preliminary outline of their plan in mid to late September. The next step will be to deal with PUD's as a process, defining their future role in the City's planning process. What will make that definition a challenge is reconciling the recognition of established rights and obligations while minimizing the administrative difficulties. Other areas which the City of Plymouth wishes the consultants to deal with, said Mr. Licht, include administrative needs and general processing standards, among others. Planning. Commission Minutes August23,1995 Page 181 Mr. Licht emphasized the importance of having in -put from the members of the Planning Commission. He asked the Chairman and members of the Commission for any questions or comments regarding this important project. Chairman Stulberg noted that modification of the PUD's was one of the cheaper items on the consultant's proposal. Since the Commission has always found the issue ofPUD's to be very complex and problematic, he wondered why the consultants considered the matter less expensive than many others to deal with. Mr. Licht replied that his firm believes that the parameters for PUD's do not really need fundamental changes; what must be modified is the way PUD's are applied. That should be a fairly simple definition to reach once the variety of conventional zoning districts is widened enough so that the vast majority of residential and commercial districts are so classified under the reformed Zoning Ordinance. Chairman Stulberg asked if it would not be best for the consultants to deal simultaneously with the issue of Northwest Plymouth since it may be interrelated to issues which will be dealt with in revamping the Zoning Ordinance. He mentioned that one big problem he has noted over time is the lack of continuity—of both Staff and Commissioners --which has led to a great deal of hard work going to waste along the wayside. Mr. Licht noted that all the distinct topics are interrelated and must be dealt with simultaneously. The ideal is that the consultants present their total project in one fell swoop, so that Staff can flip from page to page to be sure that all aspects are addressed, if not in one section then in another. Supervisor Senness added that one advantage of the current Planning Commission and. Staff is that most members worked on the Welland Ordinance, taking that complex project from beginning to end. That experience should be invaluable in helping them to deal with this new project expeditiously. Commissioner Spigner commented that, in her opinion, the County Workhouse and the City's Public Works facilities should each be a separate zoning districts unto itself to avoid dealing with special, and very complex, issues of Conditional Use Permits (CUP's). Commissioner Ribbe added that he trusted that consultants would follow their own order of priorities established in their proposal dealing with "Commercial & Industrial (C/1) Planning and Zoning Classifications". In his opinion, that particular matter is critical. Commissioner Oja noted that residents have problems with knowing that some commercial development is going to occur near their residence, but not realizing just what RIND of development that will be, Supervisor Senitess noted that the Planning Staff has been dealing for over a year with Ameridata residents who have raised issues with loading dock operations in their neighborhood, particularly with what they consider to be noise and visual problems that those operations cause. Planning Commission Minutes August 23, 1995 Page 182 Director Hurlburt stated that many aspects -including, for example, landscaping -are not dealt with in the Zoning Ordinance, but they should be. Mr. Licht agreed, noting that even including such items as conditions in PUD's can be a problem. They could easily be forgotten, and no recourse would remain ifthat did occur. To facilitate application of the new Zoning Ordinance, stated Mr. Licht, cross-referencing will be done throughout the document so that in reading any given section the reader can see clearly in what other sections of the document related matters are dealtrivith. Director Hurlburt stated that it was clearly a goal to assure that the Zoning Ordinance be more "user-friendly", carefully indexed, etc. Chairman Stulberg inquired how this process would affect the Downtown Plymouth plan. Director Hurlburt noted, for information of the Commission, that the City was now doing traffic studies to determine if the desired land uses would actually work. It was also looking at public usage information, and transportation issues. Sometime in September, the design standards should be available for Staff and the consultants to consider in defining zoning districts, so that Downtown Plymouth could be designated as one special zoning district. Mr. Licht added that Downtown Plymouth would best be handled as a special zoning district, whether it is called a Commercial Center or Downtown or whatever. Commissioner Black noted that the Planning Commission would probably have to set up several special meetings in September. It would be good to discuss this and decide what day of the week is convenient for most members. The Commission Chairman and members stated that Wednesdays tended to be the best days for meetings. Director Hurlburt requested that the Chairman and members of the Planning Commission tentatively reserve Wednesdays in September and October for special meetings. Commissioner'Preus inquired whether some aspects of the Zoning Ordinance reform would be applied immediately, or if implementation of the entire project would be held up until the second quarter of 1996. Director Harlburt said that the challenge was to see ifone or two aspects COULD feasibly be implemented alone at first, and then go on to implement the rest later. Mr. Licht said that the ideal would be to do so, but that the interrelationships of the different aspects, and the possible negative impacts of partial implementation, must be very thoroughly analyzed before recommending: any implementation whatsoever. Planning Commission Minutes August 23, 1995 Page 183 He further noted that there could be an important advantage in presenting portions of the project for separate consideration. In attempting to deal with a controversial whole, the entire project could feasibly crumble under the weight of opposition to the miriad of aspects, and it would never lead to anything. One very ambitious city he knew of tried to do that, but was unable to obtain the necessary majority of votes for approval. n t •. a i t i I_ Chairman Stuiberg requested Director Hurlburt to provide some instruction for the Planning Commission regarding the matter under study in this portion of the meeting. Director Hurlburt explained that the Community Development Department would like the members of the Commission, through the use of a "brain -storming" format, to provide planners with: Preliminary definition of which alternatives could and/or should be applied in the City. Establishment of parameters reasonably limiting the scope of the study, and within which the Planning Department would continue its activities. Senior Planner Keho initiated the discussion by stating that the information provided for the Commissioners in the August 16; 1995 Staff Report is very broad and may be much more than what is of interest to them The information was selected to give Commissioners an overview of the broad spectrum of issues and alternative solution% related to street de -5gn which are being studied indifferent areas of the U.S. All City Departments, particularly Engineering, Community Development, and Public Safety, are interested and involved in the issues which must be ,dealt with when discussingstreetdesign. are interested and involved in issues dealt with in discussing street design. Acceptable traffic calming. Central among the issues to be dealt with is what type of traffic calming people would be willing to accept, The issue must be seen from the perspectives of both pedestrians and residents, on the one hand, and drivers on the other. Pedestrians, and many residents, find quiet, tree -covered streets attractive. Nevertheless, most drivers dislike obstacles and would like to go very quickly from one place to another with as few interruptions as possible. Minimum street width requirements for Public Safety vehicles. Any changes in Plymouth's street designs will also have to be made keeping in mind that the equipment purchased in recent years by the Fire Department is extremely expensive, and has an anticipated useful life of 20 years. Alternative designs must allow sufficient space for that equipment to go where it must, Budgetary constraints. A cost/benefit analysis of the different alternatives should be made. Environmental considerations. The environmental benefits of the alternate designs are part of the, equation to be weighed as well. a Planning Commission: Minutes Augast23, 1995 Page 184 In evaluating possible changes in street designs, the City trust weigh the differentinterestsandlookforabalance. Comments from the Commissioners on what Plymouth residents will be willing to live with are vital in orienting Planning Staff along the right path. Those comments will help them to further develop ideas and come back to the Commission inSeptember. Chairman Stulberg then invited the Commissioners to informally make whatever comments and/or recommendations that they might have. Commissioner Stimson stated that she likes the idea of narrow streets and even of sidewalks, on one side of the street if not on both. Nevertheless, if the streets are narrowed, she does NOT want setbacks reduced. She wants the City to continue giving the sense of openess which one now feels while driving along its'sreets. DrectorHurlburt clarified that the narrowing of streets would not modify setbacks. They would continue to be as they are, and even though streets are narrow there would be a great sense of spaciousness. Commissioner Stimson added that she likes the idea of a hierarchy where streets inside the neighborhoods are a little different from the main roads. She cited some of Minnetonka's older areas as an excellent example: the streets are narrow, meandering and lined by numerous large trees. That gives a welcoming, peaceful atmosphere in contrast to Plymouth's wide streets. Director Hurlburt agreed that any street design policy which is set forth must include a hierarchy of residential streets, some of which carry more traffic than others, and of arterial streets, etc. Commissioner Black stated that cul-de-sacs present some special problems. Other Commissioners voiced their agreement, noting that cul-de-sacs are especially prevalent in the City and will have to be dealt with at some time in the street design study; Commissioner Black also ;noted that she is concerned with parking if streets are narrowed. Supervisor Senness and Director Hurlburt both commented on one possibility which is being given serious consideration: that of making on -street parking much more restricted to go along with the narrower roads. They asked the Commissioners to comment on whether or not residents would be ready to make that sacrifice. Commissioner Oja observed that in her neighborhood, near Armstrong Senior High School, there is no street parking on school days between 8:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m.,neverthelessthisdoesnotseemtopresentanyproblemtolocalresidents. Commissioner Spigner,emphasized that narrower roads—and some other traffic calming mechanisms which might lead to one car having to queue up in order to let another by --are a pain. She affirmed that she does NOT want a City of Minneapolis -type atmosphere in Planning Commission Minutes August 23, 1995 Page 1g5 Plymouth. Peoplehave moved here to Plymouth precisely to avoid that. She stated that she seriously doubted whether residents would accept it. Nevertheless, Chairman Stulberg stated, one reason we ARE talking about narrowing streets is to potentially protect the environment, and to reduce land area under hnperniouc cover. Commissioner Oja asserted that sidewalks were unjustified, in her opinion, since people do noteven use them. Commissioner Stimson stated that she considered sidewalks to be very important, citing as an example one located on the east side of Northwest Boulevard just north of County Road 9 Rockford Road). People congregate there and the atmospbere is wonderful. Another Commissioner added that cul-de-sacs may not necessarily need sidewalks, but certainly some busier streets do need them. Director Hurlburt asked whether the commissioners want sidewalks or not, and if so, when and. where. One of the Commissioners commented that she understood the City was only contemplating the possibility of installing some sidevialks, in conjunction with narrower streets than those required under the current norms, in select new areas of Plymouth which are yet to be developed. Planning. Secretary Vasquez, of 4330 Kirkwood Lane North, requested to be recognized for a comment. She stated that apparently none of the Commissioners who had thus far spoken had taken into consideration the function of sidewalks as a safe area for bus waiting for school - aged children. Many Plymouth residents, herself among them, are deeply concerned about the lack of sidewalks in some established neighborhoods, especially along some of the busier residential streets. There is, she added, particular reason for worry during the winter months when snowbanks along the sides of streets force children to stand in the street waiting for their school buses. To make matters worse, in the months of December through February, middle and high school students wait on the street in the dark during morning rush hour traffic. Councilman Tim Wold, who attended the meeting as an observer, requested to be recognized. That problem (of the need for sidewalks in some older, established neighborhoods, to protect school children) is the motive for 8 out of 10 citizen complaint calls he has received for several months now. There is great demand for some reasonable—and prompt—solution to this situation, Supervisor Senness cited the lack of any communication infrastructure with the school districts—all four of them that cover distinct areas in Plymouth --as the major problem. Even if the City were to set up off-street bus waiting zones for school children based on the 19954996' bus routes, there is no guarantee that those routes would not be changed as soon as the sotdent population shifts, or some new development goes in. That change could perhaps occur within 0 Planning Commission Minutes August 23, 1995 Page 186 a matter of months, and the bus waiting zones would no longer be anywhere near the assigned bus routes. All of this most be considered. Commissioner Ribbe said that he had reserved his comments until that moment, since he had long -since made it clear he sees no justification for narrowing street widths. Nevertheless, he felt obligated to inform the Commission that the previous night, in a meeting of homeowners in Harrison Hills where he resides, he had requested to bear the residents' opinions with regard to narriowing street widths and, possibly, installing sidewalks. Although there was no concensus with regard to street widths, the vast majority of home owners affirmed that there is a real need for sidewalks so their children could wait for the school bus safely. Chairman Stulberg observed that many people with school -aged children have decided to buy houses along winding streets—such as those in Harrison Hills -which are not necessarily the safest for their ldds. Maybe they should have thought about the dangers before buying their homes. One of the Commissioners asserted that other residents might consider that sidewalks themselves—or at least some things that might come along with their construction—could be a danger. Another added that we most certainly would NOT want to turn Plymouth into "mini - Minneapolis", with poorly -maintained sidewalks, crowding and gangs. Many left that city just to getaway from that. Commissioner Spigner added that when you come home from work, you don't want to have to "work" getting there. No hassles—that is what most residents who commute will want. Commissioner Oja intervened to state her concern for the fact that some of the wonderful ideas presented to the Commission by Mr. Walter Kulash, in his presentation of July 26, 1995, have not been dealt with. She hopes that the Commission will see more of those ideas incorporated into the next presentation by Senior Planner Keho. Director Hurlburt observed that some cities mandate boulevard trees. If the Commission wanted to make that recommendation, it would be important to have Forestry carefully advise on the varieties of trees selected, and to determine setbacks for tree planting. But certainly, if that were the wish of the Commission, it could be so recommended to the City Council. Commissioner Preus stated that his main concern in allowing any alternate street designs would be that Plymouth have greater flexibility for its future development. Having that flexibility, we can make Plymouth a very livable city, One problem, he continued,, might be to get residents to accept that they might have to slowdown a little bit to get to and from work, Will they be willing to make that sacrifice? Commissioner Preus went on to briefly describe his experience in Adelaide, Australia, where he resided for six months. Adelaide is a city beautifully designed and looking toward the future. In certain areas of the city, there is no vehicular transit, something like the Nicollet Mall, but without buses and public safety vehicles. It was a very nice environment in which to 0 Planning Commission Minutes August23,1995 Page 187 reside. Preus added that he considers the Planning Commission should not only deal with the new residential areas which have yet to be created, but also with existing, developed areas of the City. Director Hurlburt stated that Planning Staff would bring the street design issue back to the Planning Commission as a matter for discussion in September. Chairman Stulberg asked about close relationship between.. the new Zoning Ordinance and the street design issue and whether the Commission should be considering both at the same time. Dire ,'m Hurlburt replied that, in the case of the, street design issue, the Community Development Department is being pressured for a decision now. If we wait until the whole zoning revision is ready—a matter of several months -then we will already have some preliminary designs approved which, for better or worse, might not take into account all the design considerations which will form part of the final street design proposal. 7. Old_B ussiness: None. 8. Adiournmod: MOTION by Commissioner Sprigner, seconded by Commissioner Ribbe, to adjourn. VOTE. 6 Ayes. MOTION CARRIED unanimously. Meeting adjourned at 10:50 p.m. a