HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 11-02-1994CITY OF PLYMOUTH
PLANNING COMMISSION AMNUTES
NOVEMBER 2, 1994
The regular meeting of the Plymouth Planning Commission was called to order at 7:00
p.m. by Chairman Mike Stulberg.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman Mike Stulberg, Commissioners Barb Stimson,
Virginia Black; Christian Preus, Linda,Oja, Ed Albro and
Allen Ribbe.
A iduit L s ili.tTT?
STAFF PRESENT: Director Anne Hurlburt, Planning Supervisor Barbara
Senness, Associate Planner John Keho, and Planning
Secretary Jackie Watson
WETLAND ORDINANCE WORKSHOP
Planning Supervisor Senness introduced the topic and discussed the course of the-
meeting. hemeeting.
Mr. John Stardlow discussed the handout "Elements of Water Quality Planning'.
M. Lynn Rabuse discussed the total number and classification of wetlands, and the
other information distributed with the October 28, 1994 memo from DSU. She
suggested that the setbacks be dropped for Industrial and Commercial developments and
that there be no setback for developed residential sites.
Director Hurlburt asked if the percentage of the area affected was calculated.
Ms. Rabuse stated that she did not but could get that information.
Commissioner Albro asked for the rationale for no setbacks in the Industrial area. He
said he thought that the purpose was to keep the buildings away ..for the site edge.
Planning Supervisor Senness stated there is not a need for a yard area in the Industrial
arra. ,
Director Hurlburt stated that buffer has the affect of providing the setback for
industrial areas.
Director Hurlburt asked if the total acreage went up or down with the reclassification.
Planning Commission. Minutes
November 2, 1994
Page 229
Ms. Rabuse stated that most of the changes were with the boundaries and that some
previous mapped wetlands are no longer present.
Mr. Ron Peterson discus, Ate methodology used in the Wisconsin Rapid Assessment
Methodology (WRAM); memo of October 27, 1994. He said he wanted to emphasize
two points: to clarify that the process does not attempt to render jurisdictional
determinations; and, that it does not represent full delineation.
Chairman Stulberg asked if any of the information was new
Mr. Peterson stated that it was not and was simply a review
Commissioner Ribbe stated that there was a noticeable progression to upgrade the
classifications. He asked if it was because of observation of plant life. He said it
seems the new inventory of existing development showed more medium and high
quality,
Mr. Peterson respondee 'hat they were previously unclassified wetlands but have conte
out as projected.
Chairman Stulberg stated that he thought there were more high quality wetlands in the
developed portions of the City.
Mr. Peterson responded that there are actually more medium quality wetlands in the
developed portion of the City.
Commissioner Alum stated that he sees an increase in the amount of shoreline by
including the developed area of the City. He said he would like to see a breakout of
the amount of shoreline in the developed and undeveloped areas of the City. He asked
if the developed area wetlands have already deteriorated and would they improve with a
buffer—what size buffer would be needed to improve the wetland and how long would
it take to improve.
Mr. Peterson stated that this is unknown.
ICommissionerOjaaskedifnothingisdonewouldtheydeterioratemore.
Mr. Peterson responded that we should try to maintain the current quality of all
wetlands.
Director Hurlbun asked if it was possible to improve water quality in a wetland if the
phosphorus level is reduced, or do you just slow down the degradation.
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Planning Commission Minutes
November 2, 1994
Page 230
Mr. Peterson responded that you would improve the water quality but it was doubtful
that the wetland quality would improve.
Director Hurlburt:asked what it would take to upgrade the quality of the wetland.
Commissioner Ribbe stated that he thought to eradicate the canary grass in wetlands
you would need intensive chemical use over a period of time to kill everything and then
they would need to be replanted.
W. Peterson stated that it would take; repeated applications of herbicides used to kill
the canary grass, that just improving the water quality will not improve the wetland.
Commissioner Black stated that we don't really know if basins will improve and no
research has been done to prove this. She said that she wants to know the types of
wetlands that fall into each category. She said she felt we were losing some wetlands
in the low and medium categories that have certain values.
Mr. Peterson stated that they use the floristic characteristics to determine the type of
wetland.
Commissioner Black stated she was concerned with the loss of some habitat for the low
and medium type wetlands.
Mr. Peterson stated that the comparisons to Chanhassen show that we are very similar.
He discussed the alternatives to buffer zones as an infiltration system in the October 28,
1994 memo.
Commissioner Albin stated he was interested in the comparison of acres of shoreline in
Chanhassen to Plymouth and the percent of; shoreline in the developed and undeveloped
areas.
Director Hurlburt said that it depends on whether existing developed areas are
included.
Mr. Shardlow, said that they could calculate the shoreline in Chanhassen for the next
meeting.
Commissioner Preus asked whether the size of a wetland determines a higher
classification; if it is large versus small wetland.
Commissioner Albro stated that the ordinance needs to be looked at to ensure the
protection of wetlands during construction.
Chairman Stulberg called a recess at 8:00 p,m,; the meeting reconvened at 8:10 p.m.
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Planning Commission Minutes
November2, 1994
Page 231.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Mr. Marc Anderson, representing the Developer's
Council.
Mr. Anderson discussed the written material <distributed ,to the City by the; Developer's
Council.
Mr. Frank Svoboda stated that he was the wetland consultant for the City of
Chanhassen. He passed out information discussing the comparison of Plymouth with
Chanhassen. He said that the focus in Chanhassen was on ecological integrity. He said
the Plymouth study is based on functionally based tanking system discussed in his
October 26, 1994 memo. He said the benefit to establishing a storm water
management plan is to protect the wetlands.
Mr. Anderson statedthatthey actually compared a Plymouth Exceptional wetland to a
Chanhassen Pristine wetland and that Plymouth categories as ranked are lower than the
Chanhassen wetland qualities. He said thattbuffers :exceeding 30 feet will not
necessarily improve water quality.
Mr. Greg Frank discussed "Do Suffers Work?" ° in regard to overland flow for
phosphorus removal efficiencies. He stated that the most significant source of
phosphorus is during construction time and from paved areas. He said that ponding
system removal is best. He said consideration should be given to developers if they are
willing to enhance a wetland.
Mr. Bill Pritchard discussed the impact of an ordinance and said that lots of record,
preliminary and final plats, should be exempt,, because of the economic hardship for
these developments at these stages. Any application in process should be exempt
because of vested property rights and there should be some flexibility in the ordinance.
He said that buffers are not the only answer.
Mr. Pritchard stated the Developer's Council recommendations as follow: exceptional
wetland - 30 foot buffer with a setback of 10 feet; high quality wetland 20 foot
buffer, with a setback of 10 feet; medium quality wetland - 10 foot buffer with a
setback of 10 feet; low quality wetland - 5 feet with a setback of 5 feet. He said that
decks and patios could encroach, there should be allowances or credits for alternatives
for shorter distances, and we should look at other potentials for setbacks. He said the
ordinance should speak. to the minimums and the marketplace should dictate the
setbacks.
Commissioner Black asked what type of credits would be requested for upgrading
wetlands.
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Planning Commission Monica
November 2, 1994
Page 232
Mr. Anderson stated that an option could be to increase the quality of a wetland by
replacement with some credit to the developer.
Commissioner Black asked what the council considered enhancement.
Mr. Anderson responded that it could be moving a wetland from one classification to a
higher classification.
Commissioner Preus stated it is his understanding that the Developer's; Council has no
problems with a buffer, just the width.
Mr. Anderson responded that the developers are asking for flexibility by using
infiltration system in some spots without a buffer or possibly a meandering line.
Commissioner Preus asked how an ordinance can address these issues.
Mr. Anderson responded that page 9 of their memo spells out these issues. `
Commissioner Preus asked if any deviation from the ordinance would require approval
by the Planning Commission:
Mr. Anderson stated that flexibility issues should be spelled out in the ordinance and
would be automatic.
Commissioner Black asked who would maintain the infiltration trenches.
Mr. Anderson stated that there are ways to design the trenches so they would not fill
Up.
Mr. Frank stated that infiltration trenches would be the best overall treatment for back
yard drainage on lots with gradual slopes.
Commissioner Preus asked if this use would be on a case-by-case basis and who would
determine if this system would be used.
Mr. Frank stated that it would be up to the developer to design:
Mr. Uban stated that the City could use a Conditional Use Permit in the ordinance for
approval.
Mr. Tom les, of 5055 Evergreen Lane, stated that part of the Chanhassen ordinance
was taken from the City of Mahtomedi. He asked why discussion was mainly on
canary grass rather than loose strife, He asked why there was a change in the
classification of the Wetlands in the Wild Wings development.
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Planning Commission Minutes
November 2, 1994
Page 233
Chairman Stulberg explained that wetlands in existing developments were not classified
at first.
Planning-Superv;sory Senness said that the wetlands classification did change and that
we would find out the explanation for the change.
Mr. Jes asked if there has been any DNR input. He said that there are problems in the
Swan Lake and Wild Wings developments with drainage. He asked if the developers
would be liable for erosion control.
Director Hurlburt responded that the City has an enforcement program for erosion
control and there will be additional funding next year for enforcement and monitoring
of the program. She said that there was a DNR representative atone of the first
meetings on wetlands and that they are notified of each meeting where discussion will
take place.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Erika Urban of 1541 West Medicine Lake Drive.
Ms. Urban stated her concern is the Medicine Lake water quality.
Mr. Terry Forbord from Lundgren Bros, stated that the ordinance needs to be flexible
and include incentive based policies, He explained what they did to enhance the
wetlands in Chanhassen. He said we need to ask some questions such as what is the
price to pay for the wetlands, and can we afford this. He said and ordinance will result
in a huge increase in the price of land and housing.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Mr. Ken Wendinger of 5465 Orleans lane.
Mr. Wendinger presented the Commission with a petition on the deterioration of the
pond in the Cardinal Ridge development and a request to undo past measures which
caused the problem. He said that a larger buffer zone should be required on sites with
steep banks.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Ms. Katie Sholtz, 15800 15th Place North.
Ms. Sholtz said that water quality should not be addressed without addressing habitat.
She said she thought trenching would remove habitat:
Planning. Supervisor Senness stated that staff is suggesting that the ordinance only
address new developments and not lots of record. She said that staff has received a lot
of input from residents and City Council members have also submitted input to this
end.
Planning Commission Minutes
November 2.1994
Page 234
Mr. Shardlow stated that we should we look at some alternatives for the ordinance, list
them as clearly as possible as to the type of alternatives, describe the circumstances
under which they would be considered, and'the standards to be met.
Chairman Stulberg and Commissioners Fibbe and Preus'stated that they would like to
see some alternatives in writing for p. ; ew.
Commissioner Ribbe stated that he would also like more information on trenches.
Commissioner Albro stated that he wanted to look at options. He said he would like to
see a minimum number for back yard setbacks, that a 25 foot setback is excessive along
with a buffer.
Chairman Stulberg requested that the consultants set a minimum in the draft ordinance..
Commissioner Albro stated that he would like to look at some other assumptions to see
if something can be done to improve water quality for the exceptional and high quality
wetlands such as controlling pollution at the construction stage or preventing runoff
from impervious surfaces prior to adopting an ordinance. He said he would like the "
DSU consultants to respond to the issues raised by Frank Svoboda.
Mr. Peterson discussed and compared the methodology of DSU and that of Frank
Svoboda.
Commissioner Oja stated she wants the ordinance to include developed sites. She said
we should look at other alternatives and look at the entire picture. She said she didnot
think the idea of trying to educate the public would work.
Commissioner Stimson stated that she would like to see only new development in the
ordinance, and to look at existing development ata later time.
Commissioner Oja stated she would agree with Commissioner Stimson if we looked at
existing development at a later time.
Commissioner Black said she would like to address new development now and look at
existing development at a later time. She stated that the Commission should develop
their work plan to address the other issues raised. She said she was disappointed with
the developer's presentation; that she was happy with the currentplan. She said she
would have liked to see more examples from the developers regarding varied housing,
and alternatives, She said she did not like infiltration trenches. She said she would
like to see the criteria in writing, including minimums.
Commissioner Ribbe stated that he felt the ordinance should include new development
first, and review of existing developments at -a later time.:
Planning. Cominissi on Minutes .
November 2, 1994
Page 235
Commissioner Preus stated he agrees. {
The consensus of the Planning Commission was that the assumptions Commissioner
Albro wanted addressed not be addressed at this time: }
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Commissioner Stimson stated she would like to have some incentives with alternatives
included in the draft ordinance. The Commission agreed.
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The meeting adjourned at 10:30 p.m.