HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 08-10-1994CITY OF PLYMOUTH
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
AUGUST 10, 1994
The regular meeting of the Plymouth Planning Commission was called to order at 7:00
p.m. by Chairman Mike Stulberg.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman Mike Stulberg, Commissioners Barb Stimson,
Ed Albro, Virginia Black, Linda Oja and Allen Ribbe.
MEMBERS ABSENT: None
STAFF PRESENT: Director Anne Hurlburt, Planning Supervisor Barbara
Senness, Associate Planner John Kelm, and Planning
Secretary Jackie Watson
MOTION by Commissioner Stimson, seconded by Commissioner Black to approve the
Planning Commission Minutes for July 13, 1994 and July 20, 1994.
Vote 5 Ayes, Commissioner Albro abstained.
EVERGREEN COMMUNITY CHURCH. (94082)
Chairman Stulberg introduced the request by Evergreen Community Church for a
Conditional Use Permit to use the Wayzata Senior High School for services and classes
at 305 Vicksburg Lane.
Associate Planner Keho reviewed the August 3, 1994 staff report.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Mark Darhns representing the petitioner.
Mr. Darlms stated he was in agreement with the staff report.
Commissioner Ribbe asked if the church had a time frame as to when they would build
their own church.
Mr. Darhns sated there are no plans to build it church in the future.
Commissioner Ribbe asked if there was a time limit on how long the Conditional Use
Permit would last.
Associate Planner Keho responded that the resolution was not written with a time limit.
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August 10,'1994
Page 162
Commissioner Ribbe asked if Vito church expected growth in their membership.
Mr. Darlms stated that they do. He said that in Bloomington they grew quite a bit and
held several services but that was because of the size of the facility. He said that this
location in Plymouth will only have one service for some time.
Chairman Stolberg opened and closed the public Hearing as there was no one present to
speak on the request.
MOTION by Commissioner Black, seconded by Commissioner Ribbe to recommend
approval of the request by Evergreen Community Church for a Conditional Use Permit
to use the Wayzata Senior High School for services and classes at 305 Vicksburg lane,
subject to all conditions listed in the, August 3, 1994 staff report.
MOTION to Amend by Commissioner Oja, seconded by Commissioner Albro to
recommend that the Conditional Use Permit be reviewed annually by staff in case the
membership grows creating excessive traffic.
Roll Call Vote on Motion to Amend. 4 Ayes,; Commissioner Stimson and Black voted
Nay. Motion carried on a 4 to 2 vote,
MOTION to Amend by Commissioner Albro, seconded by Commissioner Oja to
recommend that services be limited to just Sundays,
The petitioner said they do not have Saturday services, but they may have Friday
services. He said that they will not interfere with school activities. Their other
churches have Wednesday services but do not plan to do so now. He said if they were
to have Wednesday services in the future there would not be that many people there
midweek.
Commissioner Albro stated that he appreciated the fact that someone would be using
the facility putting money into the school district.
Chairman Stultierg stated that the annual review would cover any problems that may
come up including additional services.
Roll Call Vote on Motion to Amend. 6 Nays. Motion failed on a;unanimous vote.
Roll Call Vote on Main Motion as once amended. 6 Ayes. Motion carried on a
unanimous vote.
OPUS CORPORATION (94084)
Planning Commission Nnutes
August 10, 1994
Page 163
Chairman Stulberg introduced the request by OPUS Corporation for a PUD
Preliminary Plan Amendment and Conditional Use Permit for Acrylic Design
Associates for a reduction in the number of required parking spaces and to allow an
accessory retail use in the building located north of Nathan Lane and east of Trenton
Lane.
Associate Planner Keho reviewed the August 3, 1994 staff report.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Ms. Michelle Foster, representing the petitioner,
Ms. Foster stated that they support and agree with the staff recommendation.
Chairman Stulberg opened and closed the Public Hearing as no one was present to
speak on the request.
MOTION by Commissioner Stimson, seconded by Commissioner Black to recommend
approval of the request by OPUS Corporation for a PUD Preliminary plan Amendment
and Conditional Use Permit for Acrylic Design Associates for a reduction in the
number of required parking spaces and to allow an accessory retail use in the building
located north of Nathan Lane and east of Trenton Iane, subject to all conditions listed
in the August 3, 1994 staff report,
Roll Call Vote, 6 Ayes. Motion carried on a unanimous vote.
WETLAND WORKSHOP'
Planning Supervisor Senness gave an overview of the wetland study process up to the
present time. All the inventory has been completed and digitized by the consultants,
Mr, Ron Peterson, consultant displayed the completed wetland inventory map. Each
wetland has been numbered to correspond with the map, Each has been; classified by
type. He said they found some interesting variations. He said that outside of the
MUSA they found some very high quality wetlands but the majority fall in the low
quality and are surrounded by agricultural activity which depresses their value. He said
a few fall into the excellent category -probably 10 in that category -7 of which fail
outside the MUSA, He said the initial reaction is that the wetlands fall within a bell
curve.
Mr. Peterson discussed his handout "An Overview of Wetland Functions'% He said
that few wetlands in Plymouth have ground water discharge. He said that wildlife
species found only use the wetlands part of the time.
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Planning Commission Minutes
August 10, 1994
Page 164
Ms. Lynn Rabuse stated that all the information is entered into the computer. They
now want to get at what type of buffer would be most suitable and how many
classifications of wetlands should be used for Plymouth. She discussed the handout
Wetland Ordinance Objectives". The wetland ordinance will help preserve the
wetlands in the City.
Commissioner Albro asked if there were other alternative ways to attack the problems
without a buffer such as controlling chemical use.
Mr. Peterson responded that the only way to get at nutrients to is to retain the
sediment, give water enough time to absorb in the soli, and this is by ponding or the
use of a vegetative buffer strip. He said that short of ponding he was not aware of
other technology.
Commissioner Albro stated that he felt that 100% of the pollution problem is being
attacked by buffers, and he felt that if we could keep the pollutants out we would not
need as wide a buffer. He ask how many buffers would be needed if pollutants were
controlled.
Mr. Peterson stated that the more impervious surface the more pollutants nun off into
the wetland: He said that when impervious surface is added to a healthy turf system
very little runoff flows into the wetlands except under extreme conditions.
Chairman Stulberg asked if maybe controlling the amount of impervious surfaceallowedwouldaidtheproblem, such as may cutting back impervious surface by 10
percent.
Mr. Peterson stated that he was not aware of any literature on this type of study.
Director Hurlburt stated that this ordinance was not to deal with fertilizers and ponding
issues, that these issues are pad of other regulations. She stated that we are dealing
only with land use in this ordinance and that buffer strips are atechnique to achieve
this.
Commissioner Ribbe stated that studies done with golf courses with healthy turf showed
that the amount of migration of chemicals was very small. He said he did not feel
nitrogen was a problem, it's the phosphorus. He said that if a community was
successful in just educating their people this would prevent much contamination. He
said most people want a high nitrogen fertilizer and they don't look at the other
components of fertilizers,
Ms. Rabuse stated that education is important. She said this ordinance will be trying to
treat that which is already there and that the use of fertilizers will have to be done in a
separate ordinance. She said that enforcement will be a big job in this area,
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Planning Commission Minutes
August. 10, 1994
Page 165
Commissioner Stimson stated that she felt education would be better than trying to
enforce the use offertilizer,
Chairman Stulberg stated
Commissioner Albro stated 't
areas. He said his concerniV
development. He said he wt
buffets before an ordinance i
Director Hurlburt stated that
regulating fertilizers.
fertilizer was a very small part of the problem.
he felt fertilizer was a big part of the problem in urban
that certain lands would not be suitable for
I like to see some information on the affects of the
be made for an ordinance
Ms. Rabuse stated that the ordinance must be a legal means to achieve a legal end. She
discussed the handouts "Introduction to the Components and Administration of an
Ordinance" and "Approfoh to Wetland Regulation and Protections".
Ms. Rabuse discussed the map showing a 40 -foot buffer and' setbacks throughout the
City which would affect 1200 acres in the City. Of this amount 200 acres would be
right-of-way. They also did a study with an 80 -foot setback/buffer strip combined.
She said she does not have the calculations yet but the amount of land lost will
probably be twice as much.
Director Hurlburt stated that the City of Plymouth is 21,000 acres in size.
Scott Kryce discussed different types of wetlands. Low type wetlands contain one type
of plant, small in size, no open ws;er, one texture, and one color. Medium wethmd
types contain more species, are larger in size and contain ditches conveying water.
Commissioner Black asked if the ditch was blocked what would happen,
Scott stated that they wouldonly hold the water longer, but it would not affect the
species of plants.
He said the high wetland types contain higher plant species all indigenous, but not
invasive, and have trees which increase habitat value.
He said that the excellent wetland types contain several wetlands within the basin, they
are forested and very high in the number of species present.
Mr, Peterson discussed the possible setbacks for each type of wetland which could be
from 50 feet to 75 feet for excellent types. He said that variable setbacks allow the
flexibility to fit development onto the site
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Planning Commission Nfinutes
August :10,1994
Page 166
Chairman Stulberg asked if they had data that indicated whether the larger setback does
more to protect the wetlands.
Ms. Rabuse responded that the larger setbacks and buffers are also used to protect
species as well as the wetland.
Mr. Peterson stated that for high quality wetlands the range could betas high as 50 feet
for the buffer plus a 50 -foot setback. He discussed setbacks on the maps in the hand
outs showing high and low buffer and setback areas.
Ms. Rabuse stated that the definition of a buffer is to leave the area in a natural state,
with no mowing, grading or planting. She said that the Commission needs to decide if
buffer strips should be planted if they are aheady disturbed or left in their natural state.
She said that a setback is in addition to the buffer, and the ranges they used are based
on literature for the different classifications and functions.
Chairman Stulberg called a recess at 8:40 p.m.; the meeting reconvened at 8:55 P.M.
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Ms. Rabuse stated that the four wetland classifications used in Chanhassen would be
appropriate for Plymouth as the Plymouth wetlands fall into the four types. She said
that the ranges shown would be appropriate for Plymouth. She discussed the handout
WApproach to Wetland Regulations and Protections". She said that if the regulations
ere considered to be used for existing development as well as to undeveloped land we
would end up with a lot of non -conforming lots. The Commission should determine
whether vegetation should be planted, and whether mowing can continue.. She said
that HOA documents should specify the setbacks and activity allowed in the setbacks.
She said that we could allow the present use but any new structures would need to meet
the setbacks.
Ms. Rabum stated that she has some studies on natural buffers. She said that the city
could require greater slopes and widths fora buffer.
Commissioner Black asked if the natural vegetation would reestablish itself in a
manicured area.
Mr. Peterson responded that this would vary, and if the buffer was not of a high quality
for wildlife, do you try to change it.
Ms. Rabuse asked whether the city should consider roguiding to adjust setbacks in
undeveloped portions of city,
Commissioner Albin stated that maybe a manicured buffer which would help slow
water movement would be mora effective, than a natural buffer:
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Planning Commission Minutes
August 10, 1994
Page 167
Mr. Bob Donley of 11740 38th Avenue North asked if runoff is the major concern of
pollutants into the wetlands.
Mr. Peterson deemed mnoff water as that which moves along the surface and does not
soak in.
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Mr. Donley asked if this is from the roads.
Mr. ;Peterson stated that the water from the street goes into the storm sewers and is
properly treated.
Mr. Donley asked what is the cause of the current pollution.
Mr. Peterson responded that the primary source is from impervious surface in
developed areas and in the rural area it is just from the surface of the land.
Mr. Donley stated that with more development and more impervious surface we will
need the buffer zones to prevent runoff into the wetlands.
Mr. Peterson stated that runoff from impervious surface needs to be treated.
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Mr.. Donley stated that the slopes around the wetland may not be a large concern.
Mr. Peterson stated that the steeper the slope the faster water reaches it's destination. !
He said that the quality of vegetation also determines the speed of the runoff.
Chairman Stulberg stated that runoff does not just come from roads, it can be from roof
tops and other things.
Commissioner Ribbe asked if we are saying there should be larger lots with smaller
dwellings.
Chairman Stulberg stated that there are other solutions to protecting wetlands besides
buffer strips.
Commissioner Black stated that in order to vary the size of the buffer zone, we would
need to have criteria as to soil type winch would have an impact on determining the
size of the buffer area.
Mr. Peterson stated that the general soil type can be used to determine runoff.
Commissioner Ribbe stated that Plymouth has high percentage of clay soil.
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Planning Commission. Minutes
August 10, 1994
Page 168
Commissioner Albro asked if standards could be developed as to what level of pollution
would be accepted in a wetland and make the developers prove that they can stay
within those levels.
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Mr. Peterson stated that the MPCA is trying to come up with standards but have not
done so yet. He said that nutrient loads are difficult to determine and this would need
engineering staff to assist.
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Commissioner Albin asked if these standards would be easier to defend.
Ms. Rabuse stated that it is difficult to control pollution and this mode does not fit into
the objectives of the wetland ordinance. She said that the environment for habitat is the
important part of the ordinance.
Planning Supervisor Senness stated that a foundatior will be built into the ordinance to
make itdefensible.
Commissioner Stimson stated that if impervious surface is the problem, we should look
at the guiding in the undeveloped arra of the city and look at minimum lot sizes,
amount of impervious surface, buffers and land use,
Ms. Rabuse stated that these are ways to protect the wetlands.
Director Hurlbut stated that a buffer would limit impervious surface.
Chairman Stulberg asked if we cut an amount of impervious surface what will this do
to the quality of the wetlands in the future. He said we need a good picture or best
guess.
Ms. Rabuse stated that it is difficult to measure this because there are many variables
which when combined will have an effect.
Mr. Peterson stated that this will be a case-by-case evaluation with the design of the
ponding system (N(IRP Ponds).
Director Moore stated that a treatment pond is required on a site of one acre or larger
and they are designed according to NURP standards. He said that the rear yards
typically abut the wetlands.
Chairman Stulberg stated that on a site over one acre the buffer and setback would
mostly protect the pervious surface with street runoff going into the drainage system.
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Planning Commission Minutes
August 10, 1994
Page 169
Director Hurlburt stated that maybe we could look at where the water goes from
impervious surface on a site. She said we may need a definition of how to measure
impervious surface; and redefine lot size.
Commissioner Black stated that we could define lot size as the upland portion of the
lot.
Commissioner Ribbe stated that buffers will not do everything we want them to do, that
we need the buffer to prevent grading or pushing of soil into the wetland.
Ms. Rdbuse asked for a meandering buffer consensus.
Commissioner Ribbe asked if there would be a minimum for a meandering buffer.
Ms. Rabuse stated that there could be a minimum and maximum variable.
Ms. Rabuse asked for a consensus on whether to use the four wetland types for
definition and the objectives listed on the gold sheet.
Chairman Stulberg stated that the objectives go beyond just defining a buffer, and
questioned if we are developing a wethmd ordinance or a buffer ordinance.
DirectorHurlburt stated that this ordinance will be coordinated with the work being
done by the Water Quality Commission and some type of education program to be done
by the City.
Ms. Rabuse asked for an opinion on bow the Commission felt this ordinance should
apply to existing development.
Chairman Stulherg stated that he felt they needed staff input to determine this. He
asked how you tell those on existing development that they must comply. He said we
would not want large amount of nonconforming parcels.
Commissioner Albro stated that some standards should apply to existing development
bid not the same ones as for new development.
Commissioners Albro and Stimson stated that the favored variable buffers exerpt in the
case of high quality wetlands where the buffer should be fixed.
Commissioner Albro stated that he felt some type of monument should be determined
to show the delineation of the wetland:
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Planning Commission hfinutes. -
August 10, 1994
Page 170
Commissioner Black stated that she felt e.!dsting development could be limited to
fertilizer use, and maybe over time go batt.c fit to some of the existing development and
build a NURP pond within the wetland.
Director Hurlburt stated iris would need to be a est of the water quality plan.
Mr. Peterson asked if buffer zones should be added to streams not covered by the
sboreland; ordinance.
The consensus of the Commission was affirmative.
Mr. Peterson asked if Non juridictional ponds sh6uld be treated as a low quality
wetland or not covered.
U6 consensus was to not include these ponds.
Commissioner Stimson stated that the vegetation in the buffer area be left undisturbed..
Commissioner Black said that she disagreed with variable buffers, her concern is that
some stringent minimums and variables allow for abuses.
Ms. Rabuse stated that they could include strict minimums and maximum and the
reasons.
Chairman Stulberg stated that he would like to discuss a draft ordinance at the August
24 meeting.
The Planning Commission discussed the revised schedule.
Commissioner Albro stated that anything that impacts the wetlands should be apart of
this ordinance.
The consensus of the Commission was to go ahead with the revised schedule.
Motion by Commissioner Ribbe, seconded by Commissioner Oja to adjourn the
meeting.
The meeting adjourned at 10:55 p.m.
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