HomeMy WebLinkAboutCity Council Minutes 05-22-1972 SpecialJ
M I N U T E S
SPECIAL COUNCIL MEETING
PLYMOUTH, MINNESOTA
May 22,, 1972
A special meeting of the Plymouth Village Council was called to
order by Mayor Hilde at 7:39 p.m. on May 22, 1972,
PRESENT: Mayor Hilde,, Councilmen Hunt, Neils, Seibold, Manager
Willis, Engineer Rudrud, Planner Overhiser, Assessor
Pulju, Consulting Engineer Bonestroo,
ABSENT: Councilman Spaeth.,
Mayor Hilde posed the question, "What
is the legal intent of this hec.ring?"
Manager Willis:
The purpose of the meeting is to discuss
proposed Sewer Board Capital Improvement
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A special meeting of the Plymouth Village Council was called to
order by Mayor Hilde at 7:39 p.m. on May 22, 1972,
PRESENT: Mayor Hilde,, Councilmen Hunt, Neils, Seibold, Manager
Willis, Engineer Rudrud, Planner Overhiser, Assessor
Pulju, Consulting Engineer Bonestroo,
ABSENT: Councilman Spaeth.,
Mayor Hilde posed the question, "What
is the legal intent of this hec.ring?"
Manager Willis:
The purpose of the meeting is to discuss
proposed Sewer Board Capital Improvement
COUNCIL HEARING
Proposed 5 -Year
Capital Improvements
Program - 1972-1976
1.
Program for the years 1972 through Him
They are going,to do improvements to the main plant upgrading the
treatment of the effluent; building auxiliary facilities to achieve
treatment levels; some improvements to existing interceptors; and
in the case of some of the joint interceptors, of storm water and
storm sewer, regulate the discharge during high flows to the river
without treatment. The pillage Staff's report points out that there
is some concern that the Board may have already overbuilt the facil-
ities. One of my concerns is the Board's statement that needs to be
explained:
Existing and new water quality standards of the Minnesota Pollution
Control Agency, as well as specific directives from the Agency have
determined the need for improvements and have also defined economic
consideration in over-all sewage planning." ,
It also stated that in terms of the input that went into the Sewer Board
report comes largely from the PCA; and that some higher deqrees of treat-
ment required by recent MPCA orders and water quality standards increased'
plant capital operating costs. There is no indication what the view PCA
requirements are going to be in the near or distant future.
Councilman Neils stated that as a generalization you can say that 90%
treatment requires "x" dollars, 995 treatment requires "x2" dollars,
and 99.9% would be "x4" dollars.
Mayor Hilde pointed out that the Idennepin County league probed into this
problem, and was aware of the fact that one of the most influential fac-
tors on sewer costs would be the PCA and the EPA, He felt that the PCA
would be thegreater problem because it seemed to be political; and the
Council's public statements and efforts should be directed toward the
Governor and his appointee, who is the head of the FICA, In meetings he
had with Mr. Merritt and from material he read, Mayor Hilde did not feel
that the director of RCA was capable of giving enough consideration to
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COUNCIL HEARING
Proposed 5 -Year
Capital Improvements
Program - 1972-1976
1.
Program for the years 1972 through Him
They are going,to do improvements to the main plant upgrading the
treatment of the effluent; building auxiliary facilities to achieve
treatment levels; some improvements to existing interceptors; and
in the case of some of the joint interceptors, of storm water and
storm sewer, regulate the discharge during high flows to the river
without treatment. The pillage Staff's report points out that there
is some concern that the Board may have already overbuilt the facil-
ities. One of my concerns is the Board's statement that needs to be
explained:
Existing and new water quality standards of the Minnesota Pollution
Control Agency, as well as specific directives from the Agency have
determined the need for improvements and have also defined economic
consideration in over-all sewage planning." ,
It also stated that in terms of the input that went into the Sewer Board
report comes largely from the PCA; and that some higher deqrees of treat-
ment required by recent MPCA orders and water quality standards increased'
plant capital operating costs. There is no indication what the view PCA
requirements are going to be in the near or distant future.
Councilman Neils stated that as a generalization you can say that 90%
treatment requires "x" dollars, 995 treatment requires "x2" dollars,
and 99.9% would be "x4" dollars.
Mayor Hilde pointed out that the Idennepin County league probed into this
problem, and was aware of the fact that one of the most influential fac-
tors on sewer costs would be the PCA and the EPA, He felt that the PCA
would be thegreater problem because it seemed to be political; and the
Council's public statements and efforts should be directed toward the
Governor and his appointee, who is the head of the FICA, In meetings he
had with Mr. Merritt and from material he read, Mayor Hilde did not feel
that the director of RCA was capable of giving enough consideration to
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ec6nom7'c effec tsIof any particular PCA standard.
Counci lira,s6, .Neils felt that another facet was whether the economic
investment'of meeting a stricter standard really produced a benefit l
that had tiny relationship to the expenditure of resources to get that
extra notch., He was concerned with whether, the PCA would take into
consideration something such as:
Would $10 million more investment in tertiary treatment at one
small pl`,ant be a wiser investment and greater benefit for pollu-
tion con,rol than $10 million investment elsewhere to bring a
broader spectrum of sewage collection into at least secondary,,,
treatment?
Mayor Hilde suggested that one of the most influential things that
the Council, as members of local government, could do would be to
express their own views every chance they got is to what citizens
could afford, and make the Sewer Board explain their program and
why it was necessary. They should point out at the Hearing that
anyone can ride along on the wave of current public opinion, but
they are expected to think about things like cost benefit, measur-
ing those items carefully and objectively,
Councilman Hunt inquired if, on the no -burning ordinance passed by
the State of Minnesota (whereby every village passed local ordinances),
they should have demanded that they come up with a better solution,
Mayor Hilde wens; over the project classifications in regard to the
Council's stand:
I. Approved as part of Capital Improvement Program $31,665,000,
Council agreed this was o.k,)
Approved in Concept $113,246,000,
O,k. with a change in 2,a,)
III, Approval Deferred (Major questions about timing, need or devel-
upment impact exist,) $39,701,000,
0,k. - exhibits some direction,)
Mayor Hilde wanted Councilman Hunt to bring his following point out
at the Hearing:
If Greet+wood School were built today, the ponding concept that now
exists would probably necessitate that we construct sewer lines all
the way across undeveloped property in Plymouth to the°Greenwood
School,
Councilman Neils pointed out that another facet of the Metropolitan
Council involves metropolitan planning. The planners and council
members decry ut•1van sprawl, disorderly growth and expanding the. com-
munity into a megalopolis. The sewer expansion they are proposing
creates this condition,
Manager Willis pointed out that at a meeting held during 1571 the use
of interceptors would be as a land-reSulating tool,
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Special Council Meeting May ,22,-1972 Page,, -3
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Mayor Hilde made two major points:
1) The whole set up'of the organization is wrong for appointees to
make the final deci;sior on a budget as large and significant as
the Metropolitan Sewer Budget. Mayor Hilde drew a chart of the
sewer department organization and who has the responsibility for
each phase of the operation.
State Legislature
I Metro t:ounci 1 I
sewer District I
taff
Governor
A
LOCAL
GOVERNMENT
C I T I Z E N S
With the Agency set-iir . there is no line of responsibility. Local
government can go to the staffs, but they are not the decision makers.
Local government has a direct line of responsibility to citizens to
figure a way to ,pay the Sewer Board bill,
Mayr Hilde pointed out that we could have an elective cour.0, which
had some disadvantages, or we could have a special board appointed by
the local government officials, governor or legislature.
2) Costs are already too high and steps should be taken to look for
efficiencies.
a) Don't extend interceptors beyond the present undeveloped area.
Councilman Hunt felt that they should add, "Consideration
should be given to ponding or an interim solution for parti-
cular problems.")
b) Don't progress with improved treatment faster than is reason-
ably necessary,
c) Look closely at staff and operational efficiency of sewer dis-
trict - salary levels, numbers of people, quality of people.
Don't expect the Metropolitan Council staff to properly handle
this assignment. Staffs are not good at critiquing similar
staffs.)
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d Don't build unl.ass maximum Federal and State
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funds are certain.
e Develop a policy by which all communities, especially undevel-
oped communities, would have to assess or in some way raise
funds to p their bills. (Make this mandatory to get local
government off the hook politically. The Metropolitan Council
should assume this responsibility 3s it is their program which
causes the costs.)
Councilman Neils brought up three quantitive terms:
1) What is the Sewer Board's annual budget relative to the total !etro-
politan Council budget? (A measure of indicating to them how much,
attention they should be paying to what the Sewer Board and S-aff
are doing - if 90% is in that direction that is where the attention,
should be focused.)
2) What is the source of the budget that goes to the local municipali-
ties?
3) What percentage of the local municipal budget are the metro sewer
bills?
CLARIFICAT13N: What percentage of our local municipal budget(re-
sources) is the sewer bill and what percentage of
our budget?)
Councilman Hunt stated that from an organizational standpoint, the best
way to appoint a Council would be from local government of the munici-
palities involved.
Engineer Rudrud brought ip the subject of the South St. Paul plant,
which the Sewer Board proposes to eliminate. He warted to insure that
this has been considered thoroughly and that it would not be more eco-
nomical to use it as an interim plant to pretreat sewage from South St.
Paul.
Manager Willis: ASSESSOR'S
Council members received a report from Item 4.
Assessor Pulju in April, 1972 which
included some of the changes in the State statutes in assessing real
property. Notices were sent out to all property owners in Plymouth.
The Board of Review Hearing is set for Tuesday, June 6th.
Marvin Pulju, Assessor for the Village of ;llymouth:
We have completed the 1972 real property assessments, which were given
to the County Assessor on March 16, 1972. The County Assessor's office
conducted a ratio study for the Plymouth area and returned our assess-
ments without any changes. As a result of the notices that were sent
to property owners, hearings were held for approximately three weeks.
As a result of those hearings (approximately 400), a number of ;.ssess-
ments will be rechecked and appraisals would be made pr or iu Ll'.v Joine
6th Board of Review,
Manager Willis stated that of the 400 responding, there were a great
number that were reasonably satisfied with the answers.
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Special Council Meetin5 May 22, 1972 Page 5
The following is the question an& answer session.
Couiscilman Hunt: What was the basis for the change in market
value in'a particular house in a given neighborhood?
Assessor Pu,lju: The State 'law requires that they evaluate pro-
perty at its market value. 'We made 2,000 appraisals, and the
remaining properties were figured percentage -wise based on sales
ratio studies of similar neighborhoods.
vncilman Hunt: When you look at a particular sales in a par-
ticular neighborhood by what do you make your evaluation? The
price the home was sold for, and what else?
Assessor Pulju: In certain instances we do throw out some sales
where the buyer pays too much for the property or ;here someone
gets a good buy or where it does not fall into the normal cate-
gory of a notema 1 sale,
Q] Councilman Hunt: Whac consideration is given to the financing
on a home at the time,
Assessor Pulju: Generally on contracts for deed, there would be
some sort of discount. No break is made on conventional finan-
cing.
Councilman Neils: Do you think that the methods available to you
and the ratio studies properly take into account personal proper-
ty sold with the real estate?
Assessor Pulju: We receive more information than ever before,
but the listings we receive are only an indicator of the per-
sonal property value by the purchasor.
CE Councilman Hunt: When you have identical houses located in two
different areas, one with sewer and water and one without, does
the Assessor look at the evaluation of these houses by square
footage?
E Assessor Pulju: Generally the difference seems to be in the land
evaluation, Sometimes the difference lies in special assessment.
M Councilman Neils:
1) As far as exi-.Ring properties that have no substantial im-
provements, what percentage increase took place in the
evaluation of total Plymouth existing properties?
2) Recognizing there is a difference in blanket assessments
on different neighborhoods, what is that percentage range --
from high to low?
Mayor Hilde stated teat the only community that he would be suspicious
of would be Minrgapolis, because their asstssor doesn't come under the
County Assessor. A lot of the new laws, such as Fiscal disparities,
etc., depend on accurate evaluation.
Ccuncilman Hunt: Ne bought and built a house in 1963 for $20,500
land and house), toda.%r its -valuation is Oo.se to $43,000. The
only investment he had was $5,000 for a garage. He wanted to
kns o if that was a fair change for tiriE.l area .
EJ Assessor PLL ju: 'rhore are R number of cases where the value of
property almost doubled during :he period 1167 - 1972,
r,ouncilman Hunt: Wtien the o0ginal Humestead Azt was passed in
the early 19301s, it was based on the avera c house in Minneapolis
selling at ,just a 'little over $4,030 o be inclueed in „he 25°l
taxation, Has there been any r:onsi'eration for the allowance
to be revised?
EL Assessor Pulju: This h,is been discussed a number rf times and
rejected by the legislature.
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Special Courifci t, Meeting May 229 1972 Page 6
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Assessor Pul ju :
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1) Breakdown of Market Value Increase for 1972:
36% for New Construction 64% for Reevaivati)n Changes
of Existing
2) /Total Increase in Market Value for 1972:
409132v540 21,9%
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Councilman Hunt: In 1970 the State sent out a 1 etter re-
9arding a 351 increase. Was there such a 'letter for the
past year?'
Assessor Pulju: The County Assessor met with Manager Willis
and myself, going over the ratio; and pointed out the figure
for Plymouth to be in the ballpark.
MayorrHilde pointed out that all of the communities in 4ennepin are
pretty equal - all overlapping school districts are taken into con-
sideration - and all 87 counties are fairly equal.
Councilman Neils: Can you give us any indication of whether or
not we will be better equalized with those municipalities in the
Ran;sey-Hennepin area that :reg over 30,000 rather Shan under, who
can come under the County Assessor,
LT] Assessor Pulju: The County Board ars the only ones who can change
anything over 30,000. The last assessment the County Board re-
quested the County Assessors ti, conduct some ratio studies in'
t;rose areas.
Mayor Hilde stated teat the only community that he would be suspicious
of would be Minrgapolis, because their asstssor doesn't come under the
County Assessor. A lot of the new laws, such as Fiscal disparities,
etc., depend on accurate evaluation.
Ccuncilman Hunt: Ne bought and built a house in 1963 for $20,500
land and house), toda.%r its -valuation is Oo.se to $43,000. The
only investment he had was $5,000 for a garage. He wanted to
kns o if that was a fair change for tiriE.l area .
EJ Assessor PLL ju: 'rhore are R number of cases where the value of
property almost doubled during :he period 1167 - 1972,
r,ouncilman Hunt: Wtien the o0ginal Humestead Azt was passed in
the early 19301s, it was based on the avera c house in Minneapolis
selling at ,just a 'little over $4,030 o be inclueed in „he 25°l
taxation, Has there been any r:onsi'eration for the allowance
to be revised?
EL Assessor Pulju: This h,is been discussed a number rf times and
rejected by the legislature.
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Mayor Hilde felt the Homestead Act was not fair. It does not extend
r tr people young enough, old enough or poor enough thatthey can't
afford a home and have to rent. "The apartment building that they
live in "is assessed at a higher percent - 40% instead or the di islon
of ratios that the single family is at.
Assessor Pulju: They have been proposing that the Homestead Act be
extende•d,to all residential properties. Each year in Plymouth Home-
stead cards are sunt out to 4100 home owners Oust to determine that
maybe 200 or 300 properties don't receive it.
Mayor Hilde concluded that he was particularly pleased with the Assess-
or's work.
Manager Willis reviewed the May 10, 1972
proposed revisions noted on Exhibit B.
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0, R-15 R-2, R-3 and R-4 Resid!nce":
No. 1.3.
ZONING ORDINANCE
Sign Regulations
Item f.
Proposed: "Each directional sign may be located next to street right-
of-way line so as not to obsiruct traffic, not to exceed
eight (8) feet in height and shall not be less than two,
hundred (204) feet from any other sign."
Discussion:
Councilman Hunt felt that the size of the sign would be too
small, and that the eight (fit) feet should be increased.
Manager Willis: With the propos kad ordi n;.nce, a directional
sign could ae adjacent 'o a street right-of-way line rather
than set back from it. The concern was that some of the
signs would be set b,ick so far that, because of the square
footage limitation, They would not, be visible for the pur-
pose for which they :sere intended.
Reconimen ation :
See propo•;ed above.
Roll Call: Councilmen Neils and Seibold and .Mayor Hilde voted ayn,
Councilman Hunt voted nay.
Passed - proposed revision.
No. 1 . c. .
Proposed: "Temporary signs advertising a new development hall be
allowod as follows until eighty-five 85 percent of the
construction is comp eta-.:
9iscu5siun:
Manager Willisointed out that the Cht•her requested the
eighty-five (85 percent oil. increased, and felt that the
sign might be permittFi unL11 the lost certifi:ate of occu-
dancy had been issued,
Sped al Counci 1 Meeting May , 22, 1972 Page • 8
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Councilman Hunt disagreed' with 85 percent. He -fel t, that
they would be hindering a developer, of a 400-houst devel-
opment who would have 65-70 houses left, (85t) who would
have to take his sign down or apply for an extension He
also stated that this amendment was to have eliminated this).
Mayor Hilde: So many developers get about 2/3 completed
and then concentrate on a new'de'velopment and let the old
project lag. the concern Is tha':• ito one wants beat up; old
signs in a residential area, making it seem like a commer-
cial area, for a prolonged period of time.
Councilman Hunt felt that they should add "85 percent or
four, years." ''C uncilman Neils altered this to "85 percent
or three years, 11
ecommen at on:
Temporary signs advertising a new development shall be
allowed as follows for three (3) years from date of ori-
ginal permit or until eighty-five (85) percent of the-
construction is completed, whichever occurs last, but
not to exceed three (3) years from ,the date of the ori-
gi;al permit.
Roll Call: All \oyes. }
Passed - recommenlla ti on ,,
No. l.bb
Proposed: "A namo plkte sign provided the surface area does not ex-
ceed four (4) square feet. This sign may be placed in
any front yard, but in no rase may it be placed in any
side yard.
Wherever praotihal. name plate signs shall be submitted
for approval concurrently with ;:he general development
plan or along with site plan approval. Such application,
shall be reviewed by the Village Planning Commission and
approved by the Village Council,"
Roll Call: All ayes,
Passed - proposed revision.
No, 1.c. 1
Props)sed: "Real estate signs advertising the sale or lease of pro-
perty on bui ldiags and gyne ,construction sign identifying
a building or con4tructioh O to (archi tec,ts, engineers,
contractors or suppliers)p not to exceed ninety-six (96)
square feet surface area in fetal, no more than sixteen
16) feet in height or less then two (2) feet above ground
and located on the property bung developed,"
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Special Council Mea ting -May 22,1972 Page 9
Discussion: Managir Willis pointed out that the Chamber requested
the 16'x, feet requirement be changed `oto "20 feet or more."
Counc'il'man Hunt stated that if a Sign was three or four
feet higher, the designer would get the message on it a
lot more, effectively.
tanner Overhiser pointed uut--that this proposed amend-
n,?lnt, applied to residential distrtirts and that in busi-
n'ss districts they are allowed to go up to 36 feet high.
Hl clarified that they are, at this point, discussing a
to l orary ,%Oal estate sign, aJvertis,ing the sale of pro -
Pe., ,y •
May r Hilde concluded that the 16' sign is as high as the
surf 4unding buildings, and he wouldn't want it to be higher
than 'Zhe homes.
ecommen a on :`
ame s,proposed revision above.
Roll Call: Counci man Neils and Seibuld and Mayor Hi,lde voted aye;
Counci i inn Hunt voted nay,.
Passed - proposed retvi,sion
No. l .c. 2
Proposed: "Temoorar,y 'directional si ns off the site being developed
not to excfed",sixteen (163 square feet in surface area,
not to c xce;Id -six (6) feet in height, not to exceed a
maximum of Oght 8) feet in any direction, and not less
than two hun re,i 200) feet from any other sign unless
grouped with `\other temporary directional signs in w;,Och
case the total surface area shall not exceed thirty-two
3) square f l'ct d',
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Discus0on: Councilman Nunt stated that when a sign is on an off-site
property that developer has the exclusive right, and he
wanted to increase the size from 16 Lo 96 square feet.
Couvr.'i lman Nei l a, pointed out that the amendment increased
the surface area from two (2) to sixteen (16) square feet;
and there were no limitations on where the 16 square feet
sign would be placed.
Ciuncilman Hunt felt that R-0 should be treated differently
in this part of the ordinance. '
Mayer Hilde felt that at the present time there were all
types of signs and this ordinance amendment was designeu
to become more reasonable. He further pointed rut that
Just because a sign is small does not mean that it wouldn't
be seen. If all signs were a standard size, one would not
receive more sign!ficant interest than mother, so increas-
ing it from 16 to S16 square feet would not give yogi any
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Special Council ,,Mpetinq May 229'1972 °y Page -10
relatfve improved return.
ecommen da t i on :
was recommended that the prop!a,sed amendment be accepted
as is, and that there be an addit on!1 paragraph under this
classification as follows:
Temporary directional signs located off the site being
developed for real estate developments may be located
within the "R-0 Open -Residence' Dis=trict'not to,,exc_eed
sixtyfour (64) square feet in surface area, not to ex- .
teed sixteen (16) feet in height, and not, fess than two
hundred (200) fegt from any other sign,
Roll Call: All Ayes.
Passed - proposed -revision with l.c.(3) recommendation,
rovncilman Hunt had to depart from the Mee)ting.)_,
B-1 Business":
No. 2,b.
Proposed: `'Business signs for conditional uses shall be/limited 'to
one (1) pylon sign', sixty-four (64) square feet in'suriace
area or one sign fifty (50) square feet in surface area
attached to the buildings, or five (5) percent of the wall
area on which the sign is attached, whichever is lesser.
and no mc,re than sixteen 116) feet i n nem,
Discussion: Manager Willis pointed out that the Chamber wanted the 5
percent stricken so that the larger number would govern.
ecommendati on : 11
usiness signs for cond'ti;tional uses shall be limited to
one (1) pylon sign Si-Aty-four (64) square feet in surface
area, OR one sign fifty (50) square feft in surface area
attached to the buildings, JR five (5) percent of the wall
area on which the sign is attached, whichever isrealer,
but not to exceed the maximuo as lisp, a ove, an nomore
than sixteen (16) fest in height,"
Roll Call: Three ayes. Passed - recommendation,
44 Shopping Center Business":
No. 3.b.
Proposed: Such business signs shall not exceed ninety six (96) square
feet it surface area or five 5percent of the buildin
facing, whichever is less not to exceed 's x eenfeet
T'nheight, norsha two 12) or more sma'I 1 er, signs be so
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arranged and integrated as to ) create a surface area in
excess of these requirements).,"
Discussion: Manager Wallis pointed out that the Chamber wants the
5 percent" changed ;o "25 percent, whichever is greater."
They)felt that the existing signs would be in non-
compliance immediately.
Councilman -Neils ,felt -,that 5 percent of the building -„face
was inadequate and suggested 20 percent 1;or a one-%,tory
building, and scaled downfbr each additio`lal floor.
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lRecommindation: 1
uc business signs. shat 1 not exceed n,i,lnety-
six , (96)
square feet in surface area, or 20% for 'a ,one-story
building,(and for each additional story;a proportionate
reduction would apply)- -.to_ be drafted by staff.”
Roll Call: Three ayes.
B-3 Service Business and' B-4 General Business":
No. 4.b,
Proposed: "0ne (1) business sign located on,the business property
p lovided the total surface area snal1, not Nxceed five
5' perccnt of the buildinc, facing area. an whoch side
thesign s to be vewOdf 6 -if placedn a building,
or ninety-six (96) square feet in area, whichever is
lesser, nor shall two ;2) cr more smaller s gns a so
arranged and integrated as to create a surface area in
excess of these limitations."
Discussion: Manager Willis pointed out that the same change that
applied to 3.b., "B-2 Shopping ;:enter Business Districts"
would also apply to 4,b. "B-3 Service Business Districts
and'B-4 General Business Districts."
Recommendation-7-
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commen at on:
ne (1) business sign located on the business property
provided the total surface area shall not exceed twenty
20) percent of the building facing area on whichside
thes gn s o e v ewe from, if p- laced on a one-s'or
building, (and a proportionate reduction would'--app-Ty')",
ftft to be drafted by staff."
Roll Call: Three ayes.
Proposed: "Whenever practical, business signs shall be submitted
for approval concurrently with the general development
plan or along with site plan approval. Such application
shall be reviewed by the Village Planning Commission and
approved by the Village Council."
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econim0h at 'on :
ane as proposed r'evision above.
Roll Call: Three ayes.
Passed - proposed revision.,
Manager Willis: . The Council was con -
corned that the proposed method would
require thlit befog— _any final decision
would be made on, rs.ln y o, the final
s -i to plan would havit to come i n . At the
time rezoning comes before the Planning
Co0imi ssi on and the C'nunci l', Staff gets involved in discussions re-
goeding density,,, pARllrk plan, etc. We, -Pr,opose the Council require a
General Development;,Plan accompan;„the rezoning request, so at the
time of rezoning the' C.:uncil would be. approving the General D"evelop-
ment Plan for tha=t prOect. If the Council would adopt an ordinance
relative to the above, it would save the staff a lot of work.
Mayor Hilde felt that maybe- they were trying to accomplish too much
at this step.
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Councilman Neils made two comments with respect to the proposed change:
1) The concern that has been expressed by the Planning Commission and
Council to see a final site plan at the time of zoning represents
a general dissatisfaction with the zoning ordinances. If we can't
accept what has developed according to the ordinance, then we
should change that ordinance.
2) The Council should not be fooling around with minute details at
the time of rezoning. They should be more concerned with things
that are costing the Village money when improperly done.
Mayor Hilde:
1) Criteria - description of the Council's philosophy of the concept
of the uommuni ty.
2) translate into guide plan - a little more specific but still quite
y 3) When the petitioner comes in for rezoning, he would like to see
density included at this step. By trying to accomplish too much
at this step, it gets confusing and you tend to forget something.
Counci,lman Neils: If minute details were included at this point, a
development built in the future would not have any latitude.
Councilman Seibold wanted as many facts as possible at hi,s disposal
before he votes on a rezoning request.
Y
0
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Special Council Meeting, May 22, 1972 ' Page 13
Mayor Hilde pointed out that they are going to Increase the number
of zoning classifications - there is now only;,R-1 through R-4.
Councilman Seibold fejt that with so many problems developing after
rezoning, ,ee:ul=t;ing-f rom density on the final site plan, he would
like to tali.:' that into, :onsideration prior to rezoning.
Mayor,Hilde stated `\that if density were not settled at the time of
the :
zGeneral
D:lelopment Plan, the only thing determined wo.ul\d 'he the,
oning classification. If this were left open, in two or three years
Oen the developer was ready to build he would have some latitude.
Cod ncilman; Neils still felt that with the present zoning ordinance
there was practically no latitude (the only range was the ,'amount`\;,of
cre&fts a builder received).
1
Mayor Hild,e stated that they should have a range so that they would;
have more discretion.
Planner Overhiser stated that they hoped to get into that after the
guide plan. He indicated that they were talking of up to three units
per acre and that the range would be 3-5, 5-10 and 10-20. He pointed
out that if they assigned an R2B zone, it might represent six units
per acre, which covers zoning for density.
Councilman Neils felt that Planner Overhiser's figures were acceptable
for guide planning and there should be another break between 10 and 20.
He also noted that it was unfair to rezone someone's land, and advise
them that they cou;d bjild somewhere in the range of twenty (20) units
per acre depending on the Council reviewing his site plan request.
PlLnner Overhiser stated that they should stick with their guide plan
that would affect density until they have more residential zones in
Plymouth whereby they would have to assign a range of something like
10-12 units per acre.
Mayor Hilde felt that on item 7.b.:
A statement showing the proposed density of the project with the
method of calculating said density also shown"
he would like to see the calculation at the time density is determined
and not at the site plan,
Councilman Neils stated the only difference between the two circumstan-
ces was that under the site plan the developer would have to show a
calculation to justify the density he was intending to build; on the
General Development plan approval, the Staff would develop a calcula-
tion 'in house' for use by the Council.
Mayor Hilde pointed out that there was a conflict. Under item 7 densi-
ty wasn't listed, and 7.1b, should be shown as l.g. In place of the
original 7,b. the staff was directed to include a statement on density.
He also stated that he wanted to know why 7.f, was necessary:
Complete structural electrical and mechanical plans for the
proposed bui lilings,"
4
l; 1
Mayor Hilde pointed out that they are going to Increase the number
of zoning classifications - there is now only;,R-1 through R-4.
Councilman Seibold fejt that with so many problems developing after
rezoning, ,ee:ul=t;ing-f rom density on the final site plan, he would
like to tali.:' that into, :onsideration prior to rezoning.
Mayor,Hilde stated `\that if density were not settled at the time of
the :
zGeneral
D:lelopment Plan, the only thing determined wo.ul\d 'he the,
oning classification. If this were left open, in two or three years
Oen the developer was ready to build he would have some latitude.
Cod ncilman; Neils still felt that with the present zoning ordinance
there was practically no latitude (the only range was the ,'amount`\;,of
cre&fts a builder received).
1
Mayor Hild,e stated that they should have a range so that they would;
have more discretion.
Planner Overhiser stated that they hoped to get into that after the
guide plan. He indicated that they were talking of up to three units
per acre and that the range would be 3-5, 5-10 and 10-20. He pointed
out that if they assigned an R2B zone, it might represent six units
per acre, which covers zoning for density.
Councilman Neils felt that Planner Overhiser's figures were acceptable
for guide planning and there should be another break between 10 and 20.
He also noted that it was unfair to rezone someone's land, and advise
them that they cou;d bjild somewhere in the range of twenty (20) units
per acre depending on the Council reviewing his site plan request.
PlLnner Overhiser stated that they should stick with their guide plan
that would affect density until they have more residential zones in
Plymouth whereby they would have to assign a range of something like
10-12 units per acre.
Mayor Hilde felt that on item 7.b.:
A statement showing the proposed density of the project with the
method of calculating said density also shown"
he would like to see the calculation at the time density is determined
and not at the site plan,
Councilman Neils stated the only difference between the two circumstan-
ces was that under the site plan the developer would have to show a
calculation to justify the density he was intending to build; on the
General Development plan approval, the Staff would develop a calcula-
tion 'in house' for use by the Council.
Mayor Hilde pointed out that there was a conflict. Under item 7 densi-
ty wasn't listed, and 7.1b, should be shown as l.g. In place of the
original 7,b. the staff was directed to include a statement on density.
He also stated that he wanted to know why 7.f, was necessary:
Complete structural electrical and mechanical plans for the
proposed bui lilings,"
4
0
F
D
o O
Special, Couk.ci 1 Meeti ng May 22, 1972 Page ld
Planner Overhiser states it was in the present ordinance and the,
sit -e plans that are reviewed for industrial areas are technically
supposed to list Oris material. He also stated thatr, even though
it wasn't necessary -for the Council to receive them with the site,
plan, it did have to be submitted to the Building De'l artment,
Mayor Hilde maintaired this was the building permit phase and with
the CPM the developer goes by, the architectural plans shouldn't
have to be done at the time the site plan is approved.`,
Planner Overhiser agreed that, there is always the change; that when
someone comes in with a Site plan that the planning Commission or
Council would request the building to be shaped a little differently.
He stated that if all of the stru-)tural electrical and mechanical
facets were plotted, it would all go out the window.
Mayor Hi lde requested that 7-f. be
Roll Call: Three ayes.
removed.
Manager Willis stated that this proposal would be taken to the Plan-
ning Commission.
11
Councilman Nei.s stated that lacking a proposed plat on the present
ordinance they have run into problems of switching zoning areas back
and forth because it is not possible to really know what is,being
zoned what is going to be park, what is going to be street, etc.
He felt that the General D,ovelopment Plan should include a separate
sheet of pager a survey or design -- that, in effect, is a pro-
posed plat designating which areas are to be zoned for what and
what is , the right-of-way and what isn't.
Mayor Hilae agreed with what Neils was after, but didn`t want to do
the whole preliminary plat at that'time. He requesteJ thit the Staff
draw up a requirement under item 1 that the General DevPtopment Plan
would show sufficient legal description so as to determine the zoning
boundaries of the proposed development on the development plan and on
a separate piece of paper,
Roll Call: Three ayass.
Manager Willis pointed out tha
this was regarding the assess"
r
men t rolls in the area of
Goldenrod. They talked to a number of resU ents in the area - six have
paid - and some have indicated that they weild like to have the assess-
ment stay on the roll - and about six more who have had meetings with
their neighbors requested a public hearing, He requested that the
Council delete the assessments for all those people who have not paid
their assessments, He also requested that they order and hold a public
hearing.
Councilman Neils brought up the fact that this involves approximate";!
5,000, exclusive of hearing costs and interest, He questioned if it
is legal to assess before a project is cimplete and start charging
interest on debt before the debt is paid, it should be legal to accrue
interest against that debt ani! assess from the time the project started.
r
Planner Overhiser agreed that, there is always the change; that when
someone comes in with a Site plan that the planning Commission or
Council would request the building to be shaped a little differently.
He stated that if all of the stru-)tural electrical and mechanical
facets were plotted, it would all go out the window.
Mayor Hi lde requested that 7-f. be
Roll Call: Three ayes.
removed.
Manager Willis stated that this proposal would be taken to the Plan-
ning Commission.
11
Councilman Nei.s stated that lacking a proposed plat on the present
ordinance they have run into problems of switching zoning areas back
and forth because it is not possible to really know what is,being
zoned what is going to be park, what is going to be street, etc.
He felt that the General D,ovelopment Plan should include a separate
sheet of pager a survey or design -- that, in effect, is a pro-
posed plat designating which areas are to be zoned for what and
what is , the right-of-way and what isn't.
Mayor Hilae agreed with what Neils was after, but didn`t want to do
the whole preliminary plat at that'time. He requesteJ thit the Staff
draw up a requirement under item 1 that the General DevPtopment Plan
would show sufficient legal description so as to determine the zoning
boundaries of the proposed development on the development plan and on
a separate piece of paper,
Roll Call: Three ayass.
Manager Willis pointed out tha
this was regarding the assess"
r
men t rolls in the area of
Goldenrod. They talked to a number of resU ents in the area - six have
paid - and some have indicated that they weild like to have the assess-
ment stay on the roll - and about six more who have had meetings with
their neighbors requested a public hearing, He requested that the
Council delete the assessments for all those people who have not paid
their assessments, He also requested that they order and hold a public
hearing.
Councilman Neils brought up the fact that this involves approximate";!
5,000, exclusive of hearing costs and interest, He questioned if it
is legal to assess before a project is cimplete and start charging
interest on debt before the debt is paid, it should be legal to accrue
interest against that debt ani! assess from the time the project started.
men t rolls in the area of
Goldenrod. They talked to a number of resU ents in the area - six have
paid - and some have indicated that they weild like to have the assess-
ment stay on the roll - and about six more who have had meetings with
their neighbors requested a public hearing, He requested that the
Council delete the assessments for all those people who have not paid
their assessments, He also requested that they order and hold a public
hearing.
Councilman Neils brought up the fact that this involves approximate";!
5,000, exclusive of hearing costs and interest, He questioned if it
is legal to assess before a project is cimplete and start charging
interest on debt before the debt is paid, it should be legal to accrue
interest against that debt ani! assess from the time the project started.
h
Coui-ici lman Neils stated that there are 9 F _
two major developments in residential Item 6.
that are under way, each representing
in the neighborhood of 400 units -- BanCon and Shenandoah. Village
Square is also under construction on Rd, 18 and 36th Avenue (B-3 di-
trict). If anything is going to be done witii water and sewer area
and connection charges, etc., he suggested that t. ey hustle with the
connection charges.
MOTION was made by Councilman Seibold, secronded by Councilman Neils,
to take the "Flood Plain" -a the Planning Commission. Motion carried,
three ayes.
Mayor Hi 1 de briught up the subject of th
ice arena at W4yzata Senor High School
and wanted Councilman Seibold and Managa r
Wi 1 l i s to bring him up to de..e.
7RE: WAYZAFa SENIOR olfHIcii'
SCHOOL ICE ARENA,
Councilman Seibold stated he mad* two contacts with School Board members,
as liaison for the council, to:
1) Find out who was on the Committee;
2 Have Rick Ruff advise the Committee to sit down to discuss the lo
cation. siting particular things the Council was concerned with
and their desire to have these resolved before proceeding,
Ri:k Ruff reported back to Councilman Seibold that:
1) He brought the matter up at the School Board meeting, suggesting
that the chairman of the Committee get in touch with Manager Wills
or Councilman Seibold; and
2) He asked the chairman to get in touch with Manager Willis or Coun-
cilman Seibold,
o
Special Counci1(I Meeting May 229 1972 Page "15
MOTION was made ;by C o u n c i I nSeibold, RESOLUTIO' NO. 72-187
seconded by Councilman Neils, ,to adopt RESCINDS SESSMEN-TS
RESOLUTION N0, 72-1;87, A RESOLUTION PRESENTLY IN ROLLS.
THAT RESCINDS ASSESSMENTS THAT ARE PRE- Item 5.
SENTLY ON ROLLS.' A LETTER WILL RE SENT LL
TO THE COUNTY ON MAY 239 1972, TAKING THEM OFF AND TH,pSE PEOPLE WILL
GET AMENDED TAX STATEMENTS, DELETING THOSE ASSESSMENT. FROM THEIR
PARCEL, as per' Staff reeoMesidation. Motion carried, three ayes.
MOTION was made by Councilman Seibold, RESOLUTION 10. 7`2-188
seconded by Councilman Neils,,to adopt SPECIAL
RESOLUTION 72-188, A RESOLUTION DIRECT- ASSESSMENT OLL.
IVIG THE STAFF To' PREPI'.RE A SPE%fO'IA'6 Item 5.
ASSESSMENT ROLL IN THE AMOUNT OF $6696719
WHICH,IS THE TOTAL OF ASSESSMENTS IN RESOLUTION N0. 72-187, as per
Staff.recommendation.l' Motion carried, three ayes.
MOTION was roads by ;Councilman Seibold, RESOLUTION NO. 72-189
seconded by .,Councilman Neils, to adopt CO N G PUBEIC
RESOLUTION 72-189, A RESOLUTION STATING HEARING ON ASSESSMENT ROLL.
THAT THE COUNCIL RECEIVED THE ASSESSMENT Item 5.
FJLL AND THEY ARE ORDERING A PUBLIC HEAR -
ANG, as per Staff recommendation. Motion carried, three ayes.
h
Coui-ici lman Neils stated that there are 9 F _
two major developments in residential Item 6.
that are under way, each representing
in the neighborhood of 400 units -- BanCon and Shenandoah. Village
Square is also under construction on Rd, 18 and 36th Avenue (B-3 di-
trict). If anything is going to be done witii water and sewer area
and connection charges, etc., he suggested that t. ey hustle with the
connection charges.
MOTION was made by Councilman Seibold, secronded by Councilman Neils,
to take the "Flood Plain" -a the Planning Commission. Motion carried,
three ayes.
Mayor Hi 1 de briught up the subject of th
ice arena at W4yzata Senor High School
and wanted Councilman Seibold and Managa r
Wi 1 l i s to bring him up to de..e.
7RE: WAYZAFa SENIOR olfHIcii'
SCHOOL ICE ARENA,
Councilman Seibold stated he mad* two contacts with School Board members,
as liaison for the council, to:
1) Find out who was on the Committee;
2 Have Rick Ruff advise the Committee to sit down to discuss the lo
cation. siting particular things the Council was concerned with
and their desire to have these resolved before proceeding,
Ri:k Ruff reported back to Councilman Seibold that:
1) He brought the matter up at the School Board meeting, suggesting
that the chairman of the Committee get in touch with Manager Wills
or Councilman Seibold; and
2) He asked the chairman to get in touch with Manager Willis or Coun-
cilman Seibold,
I
i
J
I I
f
Special Council Meeting May 22, 1972
f
Page. 16
Councilman Seibold stated that neither he nor Manager Willis had been
contacted by the Commit-i... e. He did note, however, that John Lindell
called him to see if the Committee had been in touch.
Manager Willis stated that they talked with Dr. Snyder, who stated
that Mr. Gavarus was the man working on the project and indicated that
Mr. Gavarus would be in touch the following day. Dr. Snyder stated
they had two sites in mind at Wayzata Senior High School with a strut-,
ture of about 125' xi 40' .
Manager Willis stated that he and Planner Overhiser obtained an '40'r,ta"j"l
photo and overlaid it with lot lines, plotting the proposed sites.
Planner Overhiser met Mr. Gavarus at the school to go over the tw, .
sites:
1) 'The first choice is at the north end where the play field is pre-
sently located near a resideehtial street (Fourth, Avenue) which
has a requirement of a minimum set -back of 50' for public buildings.
There'iv;.Jid be a drive with parking where the play field is located.
2) The seccnd choice is on the southwesterly corner between the foot-
ball field and the baseball field.
Mayor Hilde pointed out that the School Board's job is to educate people
and the Council's job is to keep people safe from intrusions on their
private life - zoning, policing, fire, etc. The Council approached the
Board with a plan this past Jenuary and out of courtesy they should
have received a routine response as to:
1) The location of the sites, and
2) Thi architecture,
which hasn't been received.
Councilman Neils stated that the Council should be very careful ,that
their concern c,ver the possible choice of location is not cinstrued
to force them to go to a selective location. They should leave such
a statement as ;elective location" out of discussions wit;i the Com-
mittee or the School Board and should only indicate "an appropriate
location wherever that may be." They could rely directly on the ordi-
nances where "a use of this type is not appropriate in an 'R' district."
If th•:y use a r nirum 24C'xl25' rn-ulztion hockey rink building, this
would ue about a 30,0'0 square fou: structure, in addition to a larger
parking lot.
Mayor Hilde stated that he hoped whatever the Committee came up with
woul be acceptaVie as it would be great for the kids. The Council
should start with the proper location for a high school, rather than
that of the ice arena.
Councilman Neils stated that the location of a high school should be
on a thoroughfare corner.
u i
Special Council Meeting May 22, 1972 Page 17`
Mayor Hilde pointed out that with the noise factor, homes should rot
be too close; howc*ver, it was already there and the Council should
not make it any more of a problem than it already was. He felt that
no one tried to understand the impact of having an ice arena on a-
high-school site. He wanted to know how the Council would react.
Planner Overhiser commented that they had soil borings taken and
eliminated all of the back soil which would not support buildings,
limiting the choice of a site to the two previously mentioned.
There would be open end bidding with the possibility of five bidders
on both Cites, and credits for the design of the exterior appearance
of the building .N 1 r. Gavarus did not say they had picked one site
or the other, Ju which one they preferred.
Mayor Hilde pointed out that their second choice might be better
because it was closer to the two main thoroughfares, if the back
was converted to parking. Councilman Seibold stated that he under-
stood they would provide the parking just north of the building.
Planner Overhiser suggested that they have ccmmunication with the
Committee or School Board, stating that the Village Council and
Staff would like to review this before bids are received.
Mayor Hilda felt that the following should be accomplished:
1) We should have the Staff prepare a report on
a) Our legal responsibilities on this kind of development within
a school district; and
b) Our legal authowity to define it as tr) zoning, site plan appro-
val and buil ing permits. (Needed at once_)
2) The Mayor should write a letter to the Chairman of the School advis-
ing
a) We are surprised thay would move so far ahem with a project
where the Village hds certain responsibilities (regarding
safety, adjacent residential areas, etc.);
b) We have not ween contacted by either the School staff or the
Committee; and
c) It is the Council's suggestion that before proceeding that they
review their plans and alternate plans to this point with the
Village Staff prior to submittal to the Planning Commission.,
3) Wait for them to set up a meeting and if this is not done by the
next Council meeting, we should be prepared to discuss the facts
at hand and decide a course of action%
Mayor Hilde felt that nothing further should be decided at this point.
Councilman Neils pointed out that rather than two main thoroughfares
accessible from the school at the corner of iv ,:nd Vicksburg, this is
downgraded to a collector's street so it is on a dead-end thoroughfare.
n
S;pecfal Council Meeting May 22, 1972 Page 18
Manager Willis stated that he and Pete L RE: UKWOQD MR7K
Thompson spoke with the principal
about
two weeks ago about the park and at that time there were two pro5lems:
1)' School Board Election.
2) Board's thinking regarding community school concepts.
Glenerally, the principal was supportive ui' the idea. He had a layout
Y,=eparrd by college students a year ago.,,The concern was the cost of
such a project, who would pay for it, and'he indicated that some types
of programs where there is not a high unit cost in terms of the Parti-
cipant that the schools, themselves, might do it. In other types of
programs, they might not find justification in their budget to support
it. He concluded that about as much as could be expected from the
School Board would be the use of the ground.
Councilman Neils thought tha.* the lighted field, etc., right up against
the Garland Lane development would cause a significant amount of pro-
tests from adjacent residents to the lighted ball fields, if they were
close by.
Manager Willis pointed out that the park would be placed as close to
the school as possible. He would ask Pete Thompson to have the Park
Recreational Advisory Commission to follow-up on it.
Roll Call: three ayes.
Mayor Hilde advised that Jim Wahl will be : JAMES C, WAHL
managing Bel Mar's apartments and will CHAIRMAN
eventually end up managing other rental PLYMOUTH VILLAGE
property, Mayor Hilde stated that he dis- PLANNING COMMISSIO
cussed with Jim Wahl his role as chairman
in the Planning Commission in view of his new position with the devel-
oper and they agreed that it would be better if 1im would resign.
Mayor Hilde read Jim Wahl's letter of resgnation(attached).
Councilman Neils didn't see any reason for Jim Wahl to resign on that
basis. Councilman Seibold agreed.
Mayor Hilde pointed. out that Bel Mar is in before the Council quite
often and they are going to be in more trying to sell their plans.
Councilman Seibold qualified that as far as Jim Wahl as an individual
was concerned he didn't see any reason to think that there would be a
conflict of interests; however, he (Jim Wahl) would personally feel in
an untenable position, and he explained it well when he said he might
lose his effectiveness.
Mayor Hilde didn't think that he would want to have a chairman who is
that close to a major developer. As far as being on the Planning Com-
mission that was up to the Council, but as far as being chairman, this
decision was up to the ilayor. He felt quite uncomfortable with the
situation in view of the name Bel Mar has developed in the Village.
AMUMENNUMMENA
u
All agreed that they were in concurrence
with the Mana,ger's memo.,
ROLE OF CONSULTUG_'
ENGINEER,
Manager Willis stated that he discussedMOONEY
this with Attorney Lefler and he stated LAKE,
that the Attorney General's office has
prepared an Attorney General's Opinion which their office is review-
ing. They plan to give a letter to us with respect to our authority
whether we can regulate a water aircraft in the Village.
Meeting was adjourned at 11:50 p.m.
046
21e
Myna May Mfron
Village Clerk
0
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f.
Special Cotorici 1 Meeting May 22 ' 1972 ' Page 19
l
Councilman Neils stated that he would prefer to see Jim's position
stand as he expressed it in his letter. This would give the Coun--
cil an opportunity to see how difficult things may be for frim,
between now and the time the comprehensive plan is completed.
Mayor 4ilde stressed that he didn't want to have a chairman connec-
ted with a developer, and they would see how things developed with
him in the Planning Commission.
u
All agreed that they were in concurrence
with the Mana,ger's memo.,
ROLE OF CONSULTUG_'
ENGINEER,
Manager Willis stated that he discussedMOONEY
this with Attorney Lefler and he stated LAKE,
that the Attorney General's office has
prepared an Attorney General's Opinion which their office is review-
ing. They plan to give a letter to us with respect to our authority
whether we can regulate a water aircraft in the Village.
Meeting was adjourned at 11:50 p.m.
046
21e
Myna May Mfron
Village Clerk
0
A