HomeMy WebLinkAboutCity Council Minutes 08-13-1970 Specialc. o
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SPECIAL JOINT MEETING
WITH SCHOOL DISTRICT #281
PLYMOUTH, MINNESOTA
AUGUST 13, 3970
A special meeting was held on August 13, 1970 by the Plymouth Village Council and
members of School -,District #281 Administration office and School Board members at
T-30 P.M. in the Plymouth Village Municipal Public Works Building,
PRESENT: Mayor Hilde, Councilmen Johnson, Hintz, Kindseth and Spaeth, Acting
Manager Barnes, Engineer Hagen, Attorney O'Brien and -Planner Bergly.
281 School District Superintendent. Dr. Hood, Assistant Supt. Mir.
Boynton, School Board me!abers, Mrs. Idell Silberman and Meters,
Bayard, Gary Joselyn and Rev. Ronald Peterson. Representatives
Lon Heinitz and Salisbury Adams and Mr. Bob'Hinckley.
After introductions were made mayor Hilde stated what the purpose of tho meeting
was and expressed council's concern for the safety of children, traffic, location
of roads, property tax base, the two-thirds portion of the property tax going to
the school district, creating a desire to get the best use of the lands within
Plymouth. Also, concern for turnishin" utilities to schools, direct or indirect
relation for school buses, planning, help for good school bus planning, their
plans for a new junior nigh school site, discovered by accident, improvement of
36th Aienue and assessment for same.
Dr. Hood said they do have a site in mind for a junior high school, and they had
spent hogrs and hours trying to find a suitable site, which was chosen because
it is near Zachary Lane, which is paved, and it's location in re latiori to the
other junior high school. 11e said they were never requested to appear before
the Planning Commission. They will welcome a better site if it is suggested b7
the Flanrer or Planning Commission. They have not heard anything ab out the
Council's concern except what they have read in the paper.
Councilman Hintz said according to state statutes it is their obligation to go
through the Planning Commission regareing school sites. He is surprised that
281 and tho other school boards have neglected following normal channels and
requesting approval for their sited. He is curious why this procedure has not
been followed.
Dr. Hood told Councilman Spaeth that there is a list of criteria they look for
and he reed them from a list, on which the availability ofdutilities at a
reasonable cosr and type of transportation is listed.
Mayor Hilde said we are not saving that you mould change your basic approach
but we are doing a plan for the point of development and you should take
advantage of this, the school will not violate a good criteria.
Mr. Joselyn said maybe 4281 should have checked in with you people long ago.
We got in a habit of not doing it and we continued to do it that way. The
problem is what do we do now? How can we proceed from this point to do it
so it works out with you folks. I would like to see how we can do things right
from now on, rather than talking about who should have done what and when.
Mayor 11ilde said if your statements represent the feelings of the group are tan
cut through some talk and time and get down to a paint. Planner Bergly was
asked to inform the board from the standpoint of planning what logira l steps
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Page 2, August 13, 1970,
to take applicable to a school site choice. Mr. Bergly said there seemed to be
no plans and asked what their plaiAs are for the next 15 to 20 years. He could
not get this information from their office as the person who could give it was
on vacation. Rev. Paterson said reference can be made to their past minutes
which indicate a future for schools. Planner Bergly said other schools have
arranged plans according to population, etc. This is vacant land. We do not
know your needs or how large it should be. We want t3 work with the School
Board and have a valid qet of criteria and balanced so we will know vhat plans
should be developed and if it fits into the school district's needs too. Two
ov three alternatives in Aach location should be considered. We are looking
at all the land,in the village and from that we sho%ld know what school sites
are needed said Planner Bergly. This is the time we should do it.
Mayor Hilde said an ideal plan is to
We are using two foot contour naps a
better job than we olid in 1968 with
being used as it was for the Central
be provided for all of the 36 square
go over the criteria for both of our
d updating which means we are doing a
no contour maps. Now 2 foot ones are
Guide Plan which was displayed. his
mailes of the village,
needs.
Another point and example from another school district was pointed out b:f Mayor
Hilde which affects the taxpayers. That is an elementary school whic;1 should
be in a neighborhood and not located on a thoroughfare street se the children
could walk and not have to use bus4s or cross thoroughfares. Thoroughfares
are suitable for higher use for a higher tax base. When you place an elementary
school on a thoroughfare you hurt the community two ways. It is no: safe and
you have to bus. Tb.e Community is deprived of a nigher use for its taxpayers,
of which you get 70.. This case is the elementary school on County Road 4 and
Highway 11101. We could ;,ave put in a very good high use developmeut here but
cannot because of the school on that corner. Not only that, it %44de it imp-
ossible to locate anything kiddy corner from that locattun. We have suffered
an untold loss of money on account of chat school.
A 8281 school right in rie Zachary Lane thoroughfare violates that criteria
and you are proposing the Junior high back off of a thoroughfare and must Lave
a 9 ton roar and extension of utilities. Ur. Hood said you allowed a church to
go in where the school should have gone. qtr. Rayr;-rd said the lend was bought
at the right time and at the right price. There wus no idea then that it would
he a thoroughfare. Mayor llilde said he used the example to show we were ncigli-
gent. Councilman Hintz seal we have 4 school districts. Theta is a problem
right herd and he named the dintric:ts. Plymouth is open and we are growing
rapidly and want o pet the beiAt tax base passible. We would like cooperation
from the school board. Three schael districts are interested in getting land
in Plymouth* but if they do not cooper -rte wi h us and the Planner 4.t will
arcate a chaotic situation here. This io what we will try to avoid.` Mr. Joaelyn
agreed and said thd%. would like to hear about !t,
Dr. flood said, we build large schools and can run a large schnnl (nore econt,mically .
Planner Bergly said a child should walk 1/2 to 3,'4 ,^,f a utile to an elerientary
school and explained %nw rf)gd preparation can Aa,e school bussing expense. `irs.
Silberman said when County ltoad #9 expnntltid she esked. for sidewalks but people
ittl not shovel them no this is a non -valid pdtnt. Mayor flilde saio' ore want to
gait confidence with each rtehr but can't unless wee can disca.sA this.
MrA. Silberman asked when -sou came out with your book did you egnsider taking
options nn the land? Councilman Ilintr said he doesn't know how we could fir, it
In our budget, we Ret 1173 and the school gets 6377. When we give the information
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Page 3. August 13, 1970
to the school board it is
before 1940 when this area
bought up cornfields and a
not near.
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up to them to pick up the land option. qtr. Joselyn said
wa;: rural and nothl,"g but cornfields #281 went out and
s airs. Silberman said they bought land where people were
Dr. Hood said we have not been negligent in planning. In 3966 we submitted our
plans to the council for three elementary schools rnd he named the sites as well
as the junior and senior high school locations. He read a portion cf the report.
Councilman Hintz said I have only been on the Council since 1909 and a plan reeds
to be updated and information from the Planner used for updating it. I would
imagine the school Loard must do the same, it is a steadfast thing. 'I would also
imagine there has been a lack of communication between the co:mcil and scl.ocl
board. I am critical because they did not follow the procedure as spelled out by
our state legislature by letting our Planning Commission know what they are doing
in the villlage. Prime land is taken off the tax rolls. A change might have taken
place ie the land use plan and thoroughfare plan, which is costing us a certain
amount of money. lee would be happy to submit this to the school board. Mayor
Hilde said in accordance with the law he sent copies of our Central Plan in
February 1970 with a letter to Drs. Flood and Snyder of P281 and 0284 school
districts, Messrs. Dsterly and Klossnar of the Highway Dept. and Messrs. Netland,
Jorvig, Dougherty.-Waldot, Doolittle and Bolstad.
Mr. Joselyn said Councilman Kindseth was at a meeti-ir, they held in 1968 as a member
of the Planning Commission. flavor Hilde said but we did not knew about this site.
Mr. Bayard saic we did not know about it either. Mr. Peterson wondered if
Councilman Kinc',seth said anything c)nut the meeting. lie objected about local voice
to the press. Mayor Hilde sa{d it has been widely known through a letter sent to
Ur. Hood, front page publicity regarding the village planning and their hiring, o:
Planner Bergly to plan for the village, particularly in your area. We have
always made an attempt to reach you. You do not come to us.
Councilman Kindseth said he was the one who, instim..ed the meeting rF,nt time be-
cause of the traffic situation and did everything he could to get: the school
board to help and nothing was done. Ctrs. Silberman Asked, what do you offer as
a good site? Mayor Hilde said the reason why this came out in the paper was be—
cause we were angry about it. Councilman Hintz said tt was our "laver's direction
two years ago to have CCR's to attend school hoard meetings or have particularly
interested citizens a.tend and report hack to us, so we were aware of what was
going on. We even clanged our council meeting nights to attend ther+. the school
district would nct change their meeting, so we changed ours. Cnunr :. tried to
communicate with the school hoard, in fact, Councilmnn Johnson set up the program.
Councilman Kindseth is the CCR for (281. Mr. Rovnton asked, what shall we do?
M_gyur Hilde said we want to hear what h.+s gone on in your meetings. Let us know
what your plans are. Councilmen Johnson asked about„ the present plan in terms of
what we can work out and how we will work on them, lie added ho wns concerned
zibgut the limited number of Pl. mouth childrer gcaing tea P291 sehools. I need to
know more ,about it. qtr. Joselyn asked if he meant )low many will. come from
Plymouth. Dr. Ilood said New Hope was in the same situation years ago. Council-
man Johnson said he feel$ the land utilization and cost for utilities for citiwens
must be equatod. I must go over the hu011e of losing land. Will it he prime
land or not? We should discuss it and I need y nr thinking can it. If tie took at
the tax it must he oquated some way.
Mavor Iii tde said the number of schools that should hP Incnted in Plymouth in the
first ro'.4cca should linty± n long rnute Ilan. Now r,;%ny more scheatil.s will you god
and where will they lacy. lie do not have vnur ,Lange -range n1 an. For example, ,tau
4 13 1970 `' Page' , August
are starting to runi,out of junior high school, capacity What now7' How will you
spread this capacity? We would like to know gourrplan for juhiior highs and
elerentaries. The present schools represent 162 of your\\schools now another one
will be 192 in Plymouth,with 3.32 of the'total students A rtending, living in
Plymouth. We do not know where it will end. Dr. Hood said. do you think it
will be the same 10 years from now? Mayor Hilde soid we we;%t to know where it
will end. Mr, Bayard said, I made a statement onge that we are through building
iq Robbinsdale, how wrong I'was. We built Lakeville after that as older people
moved out and other changes took plar.e. Mr. Baynton said we cannot make r•omises.
Councilman Hintz said, I heard today Ithat Golden Valley children will attend the
high school. It seem@ to me the planning could not have been done so well if
yo -i are bringing the^r in from so far away. Dr. Hood said we plank the schools for
2400 students. It is not economical to build them for legs. We cannot plan.
Mayor Hilde said, the more difficult things are to predict, the more important
it is to plan. Where w+ll the children go when the high school'get filled with
Plymouth children? Mr. Bayard said we are inviting you to attend a tneeting to
discuss why we picked this site. Mr. Joselyn said he hears comments from Robbin-
sdale and New Hope citizens asking why they should pay taxes for a school in
Plymouth. If the money only came from Plymouth you would not hav the school.
Isn't it true that a school attracts building, he asked. N11
Mayor Hilde said you will ha;e to evaluate the first question. We cued a case
where a school spoiled a site. Councilman Hintz said when you build a'Jchool
in Plymouth it necessitates an extra,burden and a crash progra" on thR Copncil
and village staff and engineers for the necessary utilities and on,the citl xens
who are assessed for utilities. We had to terminate a franchise for water gpd
build a q ton road where, normally, citizens would have had to have only a S ton
road. ThP difference is four times as much. Mr. Joselyn said he feels the
citiiens should iot have to pay for It. Mayor Hilde said it should be resolved
now. I admit the village has grown from a rural area to a suburtan area and has `
not always done he 'job it should in planning. But, we are now in the process
of planning thori.ughfarea and development of our village and we want, to coop-
ernte with you or it. In regard to the junior high site in general, the basic
goals for the community should be act and he read that portion that applied from
Pln:%ner Bergly's report. He said the Planner has started the planning and is
drawling a map for the entire village which is a beautiful time to work closely
with 1%?m. He offered the full resources of the village staff and sharing of
expense wherein their administrative people can work with our administrative
people and Planner. You can start irmediately. The Planner's goal depends on
getting the topography maps, which should be coming during the middle of
September. Mr. Joselyn asKed when can we start? Engineer llagen said it will
take 90 days to complete the plan. Location for a school out of that plan
will be arrived at said Mayor Hilde and he explained how a previous plan was;
done by Mr. Dahlgren. tit. J'oselyn asked, are you saying we can end up with a
site 90 days from now? Engineer Hagen replied yes, I can see no difficulty ;"
that at all. As far as coat of the land is concerned and the utilities,
they will be in the study also. Otherwise, it would he silly to recommend it
to you said Mayor Hilde,
Planner Hergly said that part of the plan could be completed in the firot 30
days. Mrs. Silberman said, you are telling us what to do. This is not a free
choice. Mayor 11t1de said, you misunderatand and explained what he meant.
Councilman Minta paid we have had to run hewer into places that did not need
it and could not put it in where it is needed. Mayor 11t1de said our Sinking
Fund status is not good and we are concerned.
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Why can't you help us? Mrs. Silberman asked Representative Heieitz. Why can't the
legislature help us until we get the population to help us? "ptesentative Adams
asked what she meant and she explained. Mr. Heinitz said the state dorisn't even
have money for -my other priority ,items. Mr. Ada; saidthere aria no golden eggs
fv.St. Paul. Mayor Hilde said state an&"federal g6ver merit funds still come from
you)and I. He asked if they are in 'agreement with working closely'with our Planer.
M:t..Joselyn said yes, tomorrow morning at 8:00 A.N. That is not possible sat'd
Mayor Hilde. It will take a week of two. Mrs. Silberman said you are asking is
to throw down the drain what we have done the past two years., Councilman Spaeth,
said, we are spending tht time too. Mr. Joselyn said we are riot in a position to
say we will accept. The idea is appealing but some have not been on the Board long.
Mayor Hilde said, it should be taken by steps. Mr,, Jc1selyn said we accept yGur
plan and we take it as presented ,'and vrill let you know what we think of it.
Councilman Kindseth asked what facilities have you made in this area for-plsnning?
Who do,you use? We have a research man on our staff Dr. Hood said, besides myself
and Mr. Boynton. Mayor Hilde said our Engineer, Acting Manager and new manager,
Mr. Crawford will have to get into it too. Mr. Joselyn said he is pleased to
hear it, but we must get together and work this out iI our minds and let you know
if we buy it. Mayor Hilde said step #2 is contingent" on step #1. Take your time.'
We are letting you know that we will work with you.
Councilman Hintz asked, will you ignore the state statutes and not work with our
Planner,? Rev. Peterson said that is out of order and a hypothet{cal Question.
We are assuming we will work with y9u. Mr. Bergly said as far as the copt is
concerned we cannot come up with what ki:rd of oxpense it will be. -mayor Hilde
said he works on a per diem basin: Any additional time for work air site location
which is beyond the normal time he works with us ti: determine land uses, we will
share charges for that. Mr. Bergly said he can furnish it for them, qtr. Joselyn
wants to know what the rates will be. Rev, Peterson said you are suggesting
there is a necessity for cooperative study, you should he able to lay, down what
these studies will be and what might be necessary with a hall parr fil,ure. Mayor
Itilde said you will get it, but not tomorrow.
Councilman Spaeth asked if this is to consider one school site or two of, three?
According to the map where are the other schools going to he, do.you envision
elementaries and junior highs in a long-range plan? Mr. Bergly will give you a
figure said !Mayor Hilde, and it will not be a b,g amount'in relation to the
benefits fo*- all concerned. fir. Bergly said, hopefully-„ 4e will save you money.
Mayor tlild said the other problem is the 36th Avenue assessment. iThe,pr site
on a thoroughfare plan map was displayed. Ext"3ion of 36th Avenue as they re-
quested was pointed out. Mayor Hilda expla'.ned the proposed aRsessmen't for this
improvement. Mr. Boynton Raid he understood the village would get state aid
funds to pay for it. Mayor Nilde said the last time this council used state
aid funds for Zachary lane which was the most foolish thing we did. We have some
ktate aid funds and before we spend a dime of it we will adopt the thoroughfare
pan and see how much of this money will he spent for this road and that road,
looking ahead for 5 years. We have turned down some very fine develipers in
the village as far as state aid is concerned. They wanted to develop on three
roed,\1 which qualified for a major or minor thoroughfare but we said no to them,
so th-att backs up my statement w itl respect to long-range plans. Councilman
Kindsath enid in no way are state aid funds free, they dre part of our budget.
Mr. Joixelyn questioned the assessment made for citizens and tae ones who will
not be Assessed because they are already being served by an interior street.
This wad explained further.
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Page 6, August 3. 1970
Councilman Johnson said he does not accept the school there and that 36th
Avenue should be improved. It is irrelevant to say that it should be there.
He has never had to think about having a road built there. Mrs: Silberman
asked if he has children and he said.:yes, three, who ride school, buses. The
need for another road to be upgraded was because of the school he said. \\
Councilman Hintz said he would like to invite the school board to attend the
next Board of Review meeting which we just Had. It isnot an obligation for
them to hold a review but next.yearyou should come and listen to the Irate
itisens. Assessments today for sewer, water and storm sewers are creating
a tremendrua burden on bur citizens which has to be taken into consideration.
People 65 years and over living on social security are concerned about their
homes which they have _taken a lifetime to buy, we should be concerned. Mr.
Joselynald, you folks levy the taxes and are concerned about the taxpayer
and feel the school district doesn't give a damn. tie, and I, as a school board
member, are 1ust as concerned. Councilman Hintz exVIained that we are concerned
about the extra burden that the assessments bring.
Mayor Hilde said, will you please indicate your need for 36th Avenue and how you
propose it should be paid for. Mr. Boynton said, hots it is to be built should
be determined by you. We must have a road. We kept a tow truck on standby last
winter for the junior high. Map. Silberman said, you gave a real good reason
when you said schools should not be on thoroughfares. How can we get to the
schools? Mayor Hilda said you misunderstood. I said ,junior and senior highs are
appropriate for thoroughfares, but not elemantar.ies. There is another problem
and that is the fact that the citizens approached us vI th what the council acc-
epted as a reasonable idea. Due to the traffic generated on 36th Avenue now
there will be a need for some eignaliaation for crossing or a foot bridge for
those coming from the north primarily. stir. Joselyn said maybe there will be a
need for signals. Mayor Bind$ said, we do not know whores the citizens just
asked. If there is a need, how is it going to be paid for? Mrs. Silberman
said just as soon as you open a school, 20 or 30 mothers ask about that and as
a rule the school board pays half and the County pays half. Dry. Hood said
legally, we cannot pay. Attorney O'Brien expressed surprise and said it would
seem legimate to pay when it is for safety of the children. Mr. Joselyn asked
what the cost options would be. Mayor Hilde said we assess the benefitted
residents who are not already served by a residential road and whatever differ-
ence is left will be assensed to the school district. The total residential
assessment is $38,264 and the school district assessment will be $81,136. The
residential assessment is based on $8.00 per front foot for a S ton road. We
bill them in October and spread it over a 15 to 20 year period. This was
questioned by Mr. Joselyn and he asked for clarification. Engineer Hagen ex-
plained how the total cost for a normal street is arrived at for which the
average assessment is \18.00 per front foot, taking into consideration the inter-
sections and ends of the blocks. The total project cost is $119,400. Six homes
on 36th Place will not be assessed. Mayor Hilda said we took the most equitable
way for those concerned. Discussion !ollowed on people travelling on Pilgrim,
bus capacity, ntunber of buses and disastrous condition if a S ton road was put
in. Mr. Boynton said they had thought of putting in a road from one school to
the other themselves. He was told that would cost them as much as it is costing
U94'
Dr. Hood mentioned working previously with Mr. Splinter and now is being told
there may be no road this winter. Mayor Hilde said it is possible. tie had to
condemn for right of way for seder due to the school location. These are the
sort of problems you run into when you do not plan. We do not control the
press. This iia the first meeting since 1968 that a meeting has bean closed to
the press. our meetings are open. Rev. Peterson said, you could have picked
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a telephone and talked to us instead of the press.
responsibility. Councilman Hintz said everyone on
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Mayor Rilde said that iskyour
the council made statements.
Dr. Hood was asked by Mayo r,Hilde what has been done so far on the proposed school
site. He said we have not, -,entered into any condemnation proceedings. Zouncilean
Hintz asked if there was an indication of'a reluctant attitude to appear before`
the Planning Commission. Dr. Hood said he does not know where the press got that
information and he, reiterated what he told Mr. Barnes and Engineer Hagen at their
meeting on July Uth.
Mrs. Silberman asked if they were concerned because the village has another use
for the land. Mayor Hilde said it has not been properly considered in light of
existing village planning. For one thing, it is nor located on an existing
thorughiare and since it isn't, it tild necessitate a 9 ton road to your site.
At this point we do' not know how we will;pay,for sewer and water utilities. It
appears as if it might be a better site for la=rge how -lets overlooking the sake and
thereby giving us a net tax advantage. We rely on our staff to come back to us.
with information. lie lean on our staff to do a professional job for us and keep
us informed:' They should make a point of studying one another'&)plans even on
approving subdivisions. We would like your input on how it will affect your
school plans and get the benefit of your timing. If we work together and share
thie,problem together this will be a solid step between us.
Dr. Hood said we haw,, never taken advantage of a windfall. We have done our test
to hold the tax base down. Another area asked to become a part of #281. Mayor;
tilde said he has a report showing that when the sales tax came into effect the
school level jumped way up. in 1968. Mr. Joselyn said that was due to Increased
salaries for teachers. Mr. Boynton said before the sales tax, people said this
would happen, so what would our property tax be without it. Councilman Kindsifth
said we can become partners to resist these pressures. Dr. Hood said it was a
A2 increase.
Acting Manager Barnes made a projection report regarding the assessment and cost
to put utilities up to the new junior high site, which he read.
Mayor Hilde said unless we can get the 36th Avenue project assessmeA)progl:am
resolved 6y August 21st, we will not have it built. Mr. Joselyn waked if it is
resolved by August 21st will the road be there. Mayor Hilde said we must have
our cooperation about the tiew school. We must work together and start now.
A meeting two years ago was a waste of time. Dr. Hood asked,,what effort have
you made? Mr. Joselyn agreed about the building plan and said I think we have
to work with you, but when you say it depends on the other sch_%nl that does not
set with me. Mayor Hildo said I can understand your feelings, being new and
walking into this, butviemust work it out together. I mean that we are saying
you should cooperate with us and work with us in good faith. That did pot
happen before this meeting. I hope you can see our concern for childrpx and
good government. We ask that you work with us and that is what we ask for this
evening. Mr. Jocelyn saie, that is blackmail. Mayor 1111de replied than: the now
manager will r+mrk with you. This is your responsibility and the villages all
around you. We are tired of waiting= 'leeting, adjourned at 1.0:10 P.M.
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