HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 08-07-2013Approved Minutes
City of Plymouth
Planning Commission Meeting
August 7, 2013
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman James Davis and Commissioners Scott Nelson, Marc
Anderson, Gordon Petrash, Bryan Oakley, and Dick Kobussen
MEMBERS ABSENT: Commissioner Nathan Robinson
STAFF PRESENT: Planning Manager Barbara Thomson, Senior Planner Marie Darling,
Senior Planner Josh Doty, Office Support Representative Janet Nelson, and Office Support
Representative Janice Bergstrom
1. CALL TO ORDER - 7:00 P.M.
2. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
3. PUBLIC FORUM
4. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION by Commissioner Petrash, seconded by Commissioner Kobussen, to approve the
August 7, 2013 Planning Commission Agenda. Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved.
5. CONSENT AGENDA
A. APPROVAL OF THE JULY 17, 2013 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
MINUTES
MOTION by Commissioner Oakley, seconded by Commissioner Petrash, to approve the
July 17, 2013 Planning Commission Meeting Minutes. Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved.
B. JESUS DIAZ (2013059)
MOTION by Commissioner Oakley, seconded by Commissioner Petrash, to approve the request
by Jesus Diaz for a variance for a detached garage over 700 square feet in a front yard at 3225
County Road 101. Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved.
C. REGENCY CENTERS (2013060)
MOTION by Commissioner Oakley, seconded by Commissioner Petrash, to approve the request
for a site plan amendment for new site lighting at Rockford Road Plaza. Vote. 6 Ayes.
MOTION approved.
6. PUBLIC HEARINGS
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
August 7, 2013
Page 2
A. K. HOVNANIAN HOMES (2013060)
Chairman Davis introduced the request by K. Hovnanian Homes for a preliminary plat for Cedar
Hollow 2nd Addition.
Senior Planner Darling gave an overview of the staff report. Senior Planner Darling said two
letters have been received and have been added to the public record.
Commissioner Petrash asked what the term "park land" means.
Senior Planner Darling explained a typical neighborhood park is eight to ten acres and land
acquisition is accomplished through subdivisions as they develop. She added in this case they
hope to have a neighborhood park in the southeast corner of the development which would
include the stand of trees in the area.
Commissioner Kobussen asked why the turnaround is required north of the creek.
Senior Planner Darling explained this would reduce tree loss in the area, especially in the park
area.
Commissioner Kobussen asked who would pay for the street when it is extended into the next
subdivision. He asked where the turnaround would be located.
Senior Planner Darling answered that the city requires the street to be stubbed to the property
line so the next development can continue the road forward. Senior Planner Darling explained
the street would be constructed at the south plat lot line and the turnaround would be located
north of the creek. The temporary turnaround would be centered on two properties with
easements over both and would have to be large enough for fire trucks and garbage trucks.
Commissioner Petrash asked if the road were not continued to the property line, who would be
responsible for that part of road when the adjacent parcel developed.
Senior Planner Darling explained a cash deposit from the developer would be held until the road
continued or the developer of the adjacent property extends that road.
Chairman Davis introduced the applicant, Kevin Clark, K. Hovnanian Homes.
Commissioner Kobussen asked Mr. Clark if he agreed with Outlot B being incorporated into Lot
3 and extending the trail along the boundary.
Mr. Clark said they are fine with the trail abutting the south property line and removing the
remnant outlot. He added that an easement would be placed over the creek with respect to that
feature. Mr. Clark added he would defer to the city engineer for the appropriate place to truncate
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
August 7, 2013
Page 3
for future connection with respect to concerns regarding impact as development proceeds to the
south.
Chairman Davis opened the public hearing.
Chairman Davis introduced Larry Toole, 4429 Urbandale Ct., who said the original plan was
best with no road going to the south or west and added that the Arbor Grove development has
only one access. He said the road south will go into the Busch property and a lot of trees would
have to be removed. Mr. Toole said if another road is necessary, a road should go to the west as
discussed before and it could connect the development right away, not five to ten years down the
road. Mr. Toole noted the new proposal adds three lots which takes away from park land. Mr.
Toole reviewed the Cedar Hollow West development and asked if the road could connect into
the cul-de-sac in that development. Mr. Toole stated more trees would be lost with this proposal,
and recommended the original plan with one entrance or a road stubbed to the west.
Chairman Davis introduced Patrick Busch, 18500 Medina Road. Mr. Busch said originally he
was not against this proposal, but was opposed to the portion that abuts their property. His
concern was regarding an unprotected area and mischief is real for them. Mr. Busch stated that
running a road 100 feet into a woods and dead ending is creating a good place to hang out. He
understands the purpose is a secondary access but the problem is that he is planning to live there
an indefinite amount of time. Mr. Busch stated they considered selling a portion on the west not
occupied by the business. They opted to not sell their higher valued land by Park Nicollet as
they plan to be in place for awhile. Mr. Busch commented that he does not understand the logic
of a secondary access in the middle of the woods which would be in disrepair before it ever gets
used, and urged them to not construct that portion of the road.
Chairman Davis closed the public hearing.
Commissioner Petrash asked if the road is constructed as proposed, if the future developer would
be obligated to develop a design that matches or could they have independence to do it the way
they want.
Senior Planner Darling stated there is some flexibility, but when looking at connecting roads and
wetlands in the area, it is a logical place to bring a road through to get lots on both sides.
Senior Planner Darling said the applicant did look at connecting the two developments but the
timing is out a year or two, depending on when sewer is accessible. She added there would be
wetland fill and there are some major grade changes. Senior Planner Darling said there is not a
lot of room to accommodate the grade change.
Planning Manager Thomson noted it not atypical that we get park land from several plats to
make up a neighborhood park. She added that parks do not develop ahead of a good supply of
neighbors as we want new residents to help plan park facilities to be tailored to those who will be
using them.
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
August 7, 2013
Page 4
Commissioner Petrash asked if there would be problems with stopping the road before it gets to
the ditch as Mr. Busch asked.
Senior Planner Darling stated the public right-of-way would still be dedicated to the south
property line. Either the developer would have to put up a cash deposit for future road
construction or work with the adjacent property developer when they come in to pay for an off-
site improvement for their development.
Chairman Davis stated he does not like this idea and concurred with Mr. Busch that a road 50
feet into the woods to park and drink would be a haven for problems. He commented with all
due respect to the City Council, he cannot vote to approve this plan. Chair Davis said he did not
have a better idea.
Mr. Len Busch, 3330 Watertown Road, Orono MN commented that 20 years ago a U-shaped
road was designed coming through his house for an access and it has been sitting there for that
long. Mr. Busch guaranteed the proposed road is going to sit there for 20 years and you can
pretend it will be an outlet. He said maybe in 30 to 40 years, but it is not going to happen as long
as he is around. Mr. Busch stated he thought this was a big farce and asked how the city can
pass that and draw a road through his house; but they did and it became a dead end. Mr. Busch
asked that they don't cross the ditch as there will be havoc that the city doesn't want.
Commissioner Petrash asked Mr. Busch if there has been a problem with kids at the dead end
road near his home.
Mr. Len Busch responded no, because there are houses on both sides of that road.
Commissioner Anderson differentiated between a right-of-way and a paved surface and stated
putting a right-of-way through doesn't mean a road goes through, only that it is available. He
noted that the only way to allow the connection later on is to take the right-of-way now.
Commissioner Anderson commented that a right-of-way straight south would not impact trees,
but wetlands would be a problem to stub straight south. Commissioner Anderson noted it is
unfortunate and he doesn't agree with it but wetlands trump trees and wetlands have more
regulations than trees. Commissioner Anderson stated the location of the right-of-way, based on
what is before the commission, is in the right location. Commissioner Anderson said to stub
west, trees are protected in the city's park and we have an approved preliminary plat there. He
stated that has been debated and determined that a route to the west is not workable at this time.
Commissioner Anderson noted he did support that. Commissioner Anderson discussed the road
and said it is not necessary to build it to the end, but it is nice to have it there, and not have to do
it later on. Commissioner Anderson stated he is fine with it ending at the turn around point and
not build the road which will prevent some of issues presented. Commissioner Anderson stated
money should be set aside now and he will support the right-of-way location and the plat.
Commissioner Anderson suggested they look at the road not going all the way through.
Commissioner Petrash stated he supports Commissioner Anderson's suggestions. He said it
would be a good solution and sees a benefit to the developer to have two additional lots.
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
August 7, 2013
Page 5
Commissioner Nelson concurred with Commissioner Petrash and Commissioner Anderson, and
said it is a tradeoff. The developer will have additional lots and some inconvenience to put a
deposit for the road to be finished, but it is the right thing to do since we are looking at a long
time Plymouth business and resident to the south.
Commissioner Kobussen asked if we postpone the stub to the end of the lot, he recommends we
don't put in the trail on the south boundary of the lot as the trail goes nowhere and doesn't help
anything. Commissioner Kobussen asked that the developer put all money in escrow to build the
road. Commissioner Kobussen said there could be an issue as to whether the money would be
enough 20 years from now.
Commissioner Petrash asked how the trail would extend past the property line.
Senior Planner Darling indicated the trail would allow residents of Schmidts Gardens to access
the park directly without going out on to the frontage road and through Cedar Hollow. She said
they would have to get separate easements to build the trail. If the road is not constructed, the
trail would not be built at this time.
Chairman Davis asked if there is enough property in Schmidts Gardens to provide an easement
for the trail.
Senior Planner Darling said they would have to work with a willing property owner to allow the
trail on their property for the connection to occur.
Mr. Clark noted approving the plat the way Commissioner Anderson mentioned would still
allocate the right-of-way and the property to the west of this proposed right-of-way is already
preliminary platted as park. He said it would be at the discretion of the Parks Department where
the trail continues to the west. Mr. Clark said it is the intent that Schmidt's Gardens and the
future development to the south would connect to the street system to get to the ball fields on
Brockton Lane. The section we are talking about angled north, and the condition is to run it to
the south boundary and the outlot would be for the trail. Mr. Clark said the trail could be
constructed across if we truncated the full development of the street to go across the right-of-way
and continue on the park property that is preliminary platted.
Mr. Patrick Busch commented that the "creek" portion is 15 deep and 15 feet wide in portions,
and said he has climbed in it and you have to work at getting out of it. He said it would have to
be changed to make it reasonably safe as the sides are almost vertical and deep.
Commissioner Anderson noted they are saying let's not put the road all the way, let's not build
the trail, yet they have a park that will develop before the Busch property will develop. Then the
trail would not do any good because it doesn't exist and they are not helping the development to
the east. Commissioner Anderson stated it seems like they should build the trail and have that
option available to tie in to connect to the park as it shouldn't wait until the Busch property
develops, which may be never.
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
August 7, 2013
Page 6
Commissioner Petrash questioned if the trail were built, would a bridge have to built.
Len Busch responded that the ditch through the swamp goes straight up, and you would have to
build a bridge 15 feet high. He added that the trail from the existing development going west has
an easement he gave to the city and the city can build a trail on the south side of the existing
easement until the grade rises up.
Commissioner Petrash stated with this information he is not sure building a trail now would be
the best solution.
Chairman Davis asked how you would access the park if we do not build a trail. He noted that
the road has to come to the entrance to the park to meet up with trail and people in Cedar Hollow
won't use the trail because it is at the south end of the property. The trail would be for people in
other developments if we can get the trail extended to the east.
Commissioner Anderson stated the original location of the trail north of ditch did not require a
bridge. Commissioner Anderson stated we have attempted to solve a land use issue in terms of
an outlot sitting there by creating a much more difficult and expensive situation for a trail which
may not happen. He said he preferred going back to the original trail location and either keep
this as an outlot owned by the developer or add it into park land.
Commissioner Oakley commented that if the trail were moved to a different location, it would
still need to be separated from the ditch by an adequate distance to allow for some 40 to 50 feet
of re -grading of slopes.
Chair Davis asked if the original plan had the trail on it.
Senior Planner Darling stated the origin preliminary plat did not have a trail because the park
property extended to the east boundary.
Commissioner Petrash stated he would support the plan as is with the road stopping before the
creek and the trail not be put in now. There would be a park for area residents of this
development and there would be two additional lots.
Commissioner Oakley stated he does not see the rationale in crossing the ditch with the road.
He said there is no rationale for a trail at this point, but if the trail were on the north side of the
ditch Commissioner Oakley said he would support that. He stated he prefers to not see the trail
at this time.
Commissioner Anderson commented if the outlot is on the north side and we don't build the trail
now, the money would be set aside until the city negotiates some easements and can build it
then.
Commissioner Petrash concurred that money should be part of the arrangement.
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
August 7, 2013
Page 7
MOTION by Commissioner Nelson, seconded by Commissioner Anderson, to approve the
request by K. Hovnanian Homes for a preliminary plat for Cedar Hollow 2nd Addition.
Friendly amendment by Commissioner Petrash, recommending that the road stop before the
creek and the trail be built later but that right-of-way be dedicated for the street and an easement
be created for the trail and that money for construction of both be put in escrow.
Commissioner Nelson and Commissioner Anderson accepted the friendly amendment.
Chair Davis clarified that Outlot A would be the trail, Outlot B would be empty pending future
development, the other side of the street would be park land, and the road would end at outlot A
north of the creek. Chairman Davis asked Patrick Busch what he thought of this proposal.
Patrick Bush said it sounds fine and meets his personal needs. He commented that it still seems
crazy if access from that neighborhood is needed and it's just not going to happen for a long
time.
Chairman Davis stated he will then support this as we are not building a road to nowhere but
would support three lots.
Roll Call Vote. 5 Ayes. MOTION approved. Commissioner Kobussen voting Nay.
7. NEW BUSINESS
Chairman Davis thanked Senior Planner Joshua Doty for years of service and support he has
provided to the Planning Commission. He commented that he is sure Baxter, Minnesota will be
happy they have hired him and wished him good luck.
Senior Planner Doty thanked the commission and said it has been a pleasure to work and know
all of you. He added that the City of Plymouth has a great organization and the people are top
notch, and he will miss them as well.
8. ADJOURNMENT
MOTION by Chair Davis, with no objection, to adjourn the meeting at 8:04 p.m.