HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 11-25-1997CITY OF PLYMOUTH
PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
NOVEMBER 25, 1997
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman Michael Stulberg, Commissioners Allen Ribbe,
Kim Koehnen, John Stoebner, Bob Stein, Jeff Thompson
arrived at 7:07 p.m.) and Roger Berkowitz
MEMBERS ABSENT:
STAFF PRESENT: Community Development Director Anne Hurlburt, Planning
Supervisor Barb Senness, Planners Shawn Drill, John Rask,
and Kendra Lindahl, and Clerical Supervisor Denise Hutt
1. CALL TO ORDER:
2. PUBLIC FORUM:
3. APPROVAL OF AGENDA:
4. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
MOTION by Commissioner Stoebner, seconded by Commissioner Koehnen to approve
the November 4, 1997 Planning Commission Minutes. Vote. 5 Ayes. (Commissioner
Stein abstained.)
5. CONSENT AGENDA: No Items.
6. PUBLIC HEARINGS:
A. CORPORATE REAL ESTATE (97151)
Chairman Stulberg introduced the request by Corporate Real Estate, Inc. for a Site Plan
Amendment and Conditional Use Permit to allow construction of a Nitrogen Processing
Plant that exceeds the maximum height for accessory structures at Honeywell Solid State
Electronics Center (SSEC) located at 12001 State Highway 55.
Planner Lindahl gave an overview of the November 21, 1997 staff report. Planner Lindahl
noted that Honeywell hired an outside contractor to monitor the sound level and found the
facility currently complies with the state noise standards.
Commissioner Thompson asked how the color of the tank affects the application. Planner
Lindahl replied that the color of the cold box was an issue stressed by residents at a
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November 25, 1997
Page #246
meeting with the owner. She stated since the application is for a Conditional Use Permit,
conditions could be added to alleviate concerns raised by the neighbors.
Chairman Stulberg asked if the application would be before the Commission if the cold
box was less than 20 feet. Planner Lindahl replied affirmatively, but only for the Site Plan
Amendment.
Commissioner Berkowitz asked if the plant is open on the east side. Planner Lindahl
replied affirmatively, for access and air circulation.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Bruce Maus, representing the petitioner. Mr. Maus stated
that on their own initiative they sent out notices for two neighborhood meetings to get
feedback from the residents. One concern raised by the neighbors was the tanker noise. If
the application is approved, the deliveries would be reduced from 14 to three times per
month. They have also restricted the deliveries in the evening hours so it wouldn't be such
a nuisance to the neighbors. Mr. Maus said that they retained an independent acoustical
consultant to take readings. They have also proposed a $40,000 landscaping project at
their own initiative. Mr. Maus stated that they will bring in sample colors for the staff to
review and approve for the cold box. Mr. Maus explained that the actual "plant" is a
compressor unit, which is a little larger than an air conditioner.
Commissioner Ribbe stated that the "plant" is basically a tank and a compressor.
Commissioner Ribbe asked if the basic reason for the cold box being white is for
minimizing solar heat. Mr. Maus replied affirmatively and added that they will try to stick
to the lightest possible color for the box to be compatible with the building, but hopefully
not absorb too much solar.
Commissioner Thompson asked if changing the color of the cold box to a darker shade
would have a major affect on the efficiency. Mr. Maus answered that he didn't know at
what point it changes the efficiency.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Steven Kvernstoen, sound engineer and Allen Jezouit from
Praxair, Inc., representing the petitioner.
Commissioner Berkowitz asked how the plant separates the nitrogen from the air, and
what materials are involved. Mr. Jezouit explained that process. The compressor and
cold box essentially distill the nitrogen from the atmosphere. Commissioner Berkowitz
asked if it is a continuous process. Mr. Jezouit replied that it is a 24-hour a day, seven
days a week operation. Commissioner Berkowitz asked how it would affect the operation
if the hours are limited. Mr. Jezouit replied that Honeywell's use is constant.
Commissioner Thompson asked how the darker color would affect the efficiency. Mr.
Jezouit responded that they would need to use the lightest color possible, but would work
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November 25, 1997
Page #247
with staff for approval. Chairman Stulberg asked if other plants have other colors besides
white for their boxes. Mr. 7ezouit replied affirmatively.
Chairman Stulberg asked if they could have two 20 -foot cold boxes connected instead of
one 40 -foot box. Mr. 7ezouit replied negatively, as they need the height for the purity.
Mr. Kvernstoen explained the process that he used in measuring the noise at varying
distances surrounding the site. He said that he took readings at three difference times
during the day (3:00 to 3:30 p.m., 9:00 to 9:30 p.m. and 4:00 to 4:30 a.m.) From the data
collected, Mr. Kvernstoen stated that the application proposed for the site will meet the
legal noise limits and will blend into the background noise from the highway and other
sources. Chairman Stulberg asked what the noise will sound like. Mr. Kvernstoen stated
that the compressor makes a constant low to medium pitched noise with a venting valve
that occurs every three to 10 minutes that lasts about eight seconds. The venting valve
sounds like air brakes releasing on trucks, but with a muffler on it, the noise will be
reduced.
Commissioner Stein asked how much vegetation it takes to reduce the sound levels. Mr.
Kvernstoen responded that vegetation tends to be a psychological, and it takes numerous
trees and a large amount of vegetation to reduce the noise.
Chairman Stulberg opened the public hearing.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Van Cardashian of 1015 Ives Lane. Mr. Cardashian asked
where the nitrogen tank would be on the site, and what the distance is from the property
edge on the north side. He wanted to know what the construction is on the north side of
the building along Highway 55. Mr. Cardashian stated that he would prefer to listen to
trucks rather than a 24-hour a day, seven days a week operation. He said that when
Honeywell purchased the land they promised it would be a research facility, and there
would be no manufacturing. Mr. Cardashian stated that the proposal should be denied.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Vali Kardashian of 1015 Ives Lane. Ms. Kardashian stated
that when the zoning was changed to accommodate Honeywell, the residents thought it
would be offices. She stated that she doesn't mind the noise from the trucks, but rather
the constant compressor noise. Ms. Kardashian asked what happened to residential
zoning, and stated her opposition to any further changes to the Honeywell site.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Betty Hammerbeck of 1010 Kirkwood Lane North. Ms.
Hammerbeck stated that the residents have seen significant growth and noise on the site
since 1975. She stated that her greatest concern is the noise. Ms. Hammerbeck stated
that the residents hear a very high-pitched sound, and objects to continued enlargement of
the facility.
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November 25, 1997
Page #248
Chairman Stulberg introduced John Lilly of 12400 Ravenwood. Mr. Lilly stated that the
factors to consider are danger, site, sound and function of the proposal. He said that
danger is a non -issue with nitrogen. He stated that site is a non issue also, as Honeywell
has kept the site well maintained. Mr. Lilly commented that sound is an unknown quantity
at this time, and is dependent upon how you measure it. He asked if you have noise from
Highway 55 and a plant making noise, don't you increase the level. He asked how sound
can be measured. Mr. Lilly stated that the tanker trucks that come in sound like a car horn
stuck. Mr. Lilly said that he did not know what the original intent of the site was
pertaining to function, but suggested that the Commission investigate to see whether they
are in violation. He asked how manufacturing is measured. Mr. Lilly said that Honeywell
has been a good neighbor, but the Commission needs to look at the issues.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Eric Pearson of 1015 Kirkwood Lane North. Mr. Pearson
stated his opposition to the application, as he is concerned with sound and zoning of the
site. He asked if a zoning change is required as it seems that the primary use isn't allowed
in this district. Mr. Pearson stated that he took his own sound readings of the site, which
were 70 to 80 decibels. He said that when Mr. Kvernstoen took readings, Honeywell shut
down some of their own systems. Mr. Pearson stated his opposition to the constant noise,
which is a high-pitched whiny noise. He said that the noise is injurious to the use and
enjoyment of his property. He asked if the screening would cause a bouncing off effect.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Charles Rosengren of 800 Windemere Curve. Mr.
Rosengren commented that most of his issues have been raised by other residents. He said
that he would like the cold box painted a different color and is in favor of the screening.
Mr. Rosengren agreed that noise is an issue in the neighborhood. He said the Commission
should look at the original intent and approval of the Honeywell site. Mr. Rosengren
asked what the compressor noise will sound like, and what kind of screening is proposed
for the back of the building. He stated his appreciation for what Honeywell has tried to do
to alleviate the noise.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Al Hohbein of 1020 Ives Lane. Mr. Hohbein stated that
some of the noise situation comes from the lake in the back, and the applicant should look
at reflecting the noise at the lake level. He commented that Honeywell has been a good
neighbor.
Chairman Stulberg closed the public hearing.
In response to questions/issues raised, Planner Lindahl pointed out where the tanks would
be on the site, with the cold box located on the traffic island. She stated that the unit
would be about 675 feet to the north property line. Planner Lindahl stated that previous
approvals were not investigated, as the current use complies with the Zoning Ordinance.
The site was approved in 1968 for an office/research building. Director Hurlburt stated
that the City adopted a new ordinance a year ago. The B-1 District no longer exists, and
was replaced with the O -R and B -C Districts. All property was placed into a new district
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November 25, 1997
Page #249
which was most closely associated with the current district. She said that some
manufacturing is allowed by Conditional Use Permit, and research labs and offices are a
permitted use. The equipment is an accessory to the laboratory use, not the
manufacturing. A laboratory was permitted in the B-1 district. Historically, Honeywell
did not fit very well into the B-1 District. The height of the cold box is what requires the
Conditional Use Permit. She stated that the Commission has to look at what it is zoned
today, which is Business Campus. Planner Lindahl explained that manufacturing is based
on area, and Honeywell is not changing their use in any way. She said that staff conferred
with the city attorney to confirm that the accessory use is for the laboratory.
Mr. Kvernstoen stated that the high pitch noise comes from the cooling towers. The
proposed screen does screen well from the residential area, but if you totally enclose it, it
could have an adverse affect. Trying to reflect the noise at the lake level would be fairly
minimal, a decibel or two at most. He stated that the compressor sound would be similar
to a refrigeration unit on a truck. He said that the sound wouldn't change any from what
the neighbors are already experiencing.
Commissioner Ribbe asked if the compressor, which is powered by an electric motor,
would be similar to a large air conditioner. Mr. Kvernstoen replied affirmatively.
Commissioner Stoebner asked what the state noise limit is. Mr. Kvernstoen replied that
you can not exceed the 50 decibel level from 10:00 p.m. to 7:00 a.m. He stated that if you
have two noise sources of 50 decibels each, the decibel level would be about 52 decibels.
Commissioner Stoebner asked if the state limit is measured at the property line. Mr.
Kvernstoen responded affirmatively.
Commissioner Stein asked if it would be possible to add acoustical material on the inside
wall around the compressor. Mr. Kverstoen replied it is possible to use absorptive
material and enclose the whole thing, but it would probably only decrease the noise by a
small amount. Commissioner Stein asked is there a portable compressor that could be
used for a test demonstration, to allow the neighbors to experience the noise. Mr.
Kvernstoen stated that they could theoretically make a tape recording and put it on the site
with a large speaker.
Commissioner Thompson asked if the neighbors were told they could go to Bloomington
site to experience the noise. Mr. Maus replied affirmatively. Chairman Stulberg
commented that the site is not a good comparison to what the applicant is proposing for
this site.
In response to questions/issues raised, Mr. Maus stated that the construction on the north
side of the site is for installing Honeywell's own well for laboratory water. The high pitch
noise the residents hear could be from the cooling tower. The function of the nitrogen
plant is accessory to the laboratory use, which is a permitted use under the ordinance. He
said that on the surface of their operation, you can't really tell the difference between a
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November 25, 1997
Page #250
laboratory use and a manufacturing use. They define manufacturing as gaining revenue
from a product. Since the labs operates 24 hours a day, they rely on nitrogen gas, and this
proposal would provide a source on site, which also reduces the truck traffic.
Commissioner Stein asked if the compressor cycles on and off. Mr. Maus replied
negatively.
Commissioner Koehnen commented that the staff report gave the impression that the
neighbors agree with minimizing truck traffic. Planner Lindahl stated that the main issue
with the residents is noise, and at the neighborhood meeting, Honeywell stated that noise
would decrease because of less truck traffic.
Mr. Maus agreed that most of the questions at the neighborhood meeting related to noise,
and it is not feasible to theoretically create the situation.
Commissioner Koehnen asked what standards there are to consider pertaining to noise.
Director Hurlburt replied that the applicant has to comply with the standards of the
Conditional Use Permit. Mr. Maus stated that the proposal meets the guidelines of the
ordinance. They have diligently tried to correct problems raised by the neighbors.
Commissioner Berkowitz asked if Honeywell would do a more detailed noise study. Mr.
Maus stated that their own engineers did readings, and then hired an independent source,
but didn't require a full statistical report. He stated that the consultant's readings are
consistent with the readings that Honeywell performed.
MOTION by Commissioner Thompson, seconded by Commissioner Ribbe to recommend
approval of a Conditional Use Permit for Honeywell Solid State Electronics Center
S SEC) located at 12001 Highway 55, with the exception of Condition #2.
Commissioner Thompson stated that there is no legitimate basis for requiring Condition
2. He said that a very light beige is not much different than white. He commented that
the unit needs to be energy efficient and the condition shouldn't require a hardship on the
owner. Commissioner Thompson stated that Honeywell has met its burden of proof by
submitting noise documentation. He commented that the only issue for the Commission is
to consider is the height, and discretion is fairly limited.
MOTION to Amend by Commissioner Stoebner, seconded by Commissioner Koehnen to
add a condition requiring that the operation of nitrogen and tanks must at all times comply
with the State standards.
Commissioner Stein stated that while he agrees with the motion, they already have to
comply with the state standards without adding a condition. Commissioner Stoebner said
that the condition gives the neighbors some leverage if it's part of the Conditional Use
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November 25, 1997
Page #251
Permit resolution. Commissioner Berkowitz concurred. Commissioner Ribbe stated he
would vote against the motion, as the Commission shouldn't impose something redundant.
Roll Call Vote on MOTION to Amend. 6 Ayes. MOTION carried on a 6-1 Vote.
Commissioner Ribbe voted Nay.)
MOTION by Commissioner Stein, seconded by Commissioner Stoebner to add Condition
2 back in to the resolution. Commissioner Stein stated that aesthetics are important, and
there can't be that much difference between a light beige and white for energy efficiency.
Commissioner Thompson commented that the color of the cold box would not be
injurious to other property owners. Commissioner Berkowitz said that it should remain
white for safety and industry standards. Commissioner Thompson stated that the
Commission lacks a legitimate basis to require a different color. Commissioner Stein
commented that recommendations are made all the time pertaining to aesthetics.
Commissioner Stoebner said that there is a difference between tan and white, and it is
appropriate for the enjoyment and use of surrounding properties.
Roll Call Vote on MOTION to Amend. 4 Ayes. MOTION approved on a 4-3 Vote.
Commissioner Thompson, Berkowitz and Ribbe voted Nay.)
Commissioner Ribbe stated that the issue before the Commission is the Conditional Use
Permit for a tank and a compressor, and not an extension of manufacturing. He said that
Honeywell has gone further than any other industry, and for the Commission to require
more is unreasonable.
Commissioner Berkowitz commented that he would vote against the main motion, as the
Commission has an opportunity to avoid a potential problem before it begins. He said that
noise is subjective to the receptor.
Commissioner Koehnen stated that it is not clear how the noise will affect the residents.
Commissioner Berkowitz commented that the proposal does not meet Condition #2 of the
Conditional Use Permit Standards.
MOTION by Commissioner Stein, seconded by Commissioner Koehnen to table until
Honeywell can submit documentation/proof that it doesn't exceed 50 decibels at the
property line.
Commissioner Thompson asked about the review deadline. Director Hurlburt stated that
the applicant can request an extension, but the date shouldn't be open-ended. Roll Call
Vote. 2 Ayes. MOTION failed on a 2-5 Vote. (Commissioners Stoebner, Thompson,
Berkowitz, Ribbe and Chairman Stulberg voted Nay.)
Planning Commission Minutes
November 25, 1997
Page #252
Commissioner Thompson commented that the Pollution Control Agency has standards
that keep the noise from being injurious to neighbors. He said that the testimony received
is that the noise would be reduced because of less trucks, and it would be inappropriate to
vote against the proposal.
Commissioner Stein stated that the noise reading submitted is not a statistical report.
Commissioner Thompson commented that the burden of proof lies with the neighbors and
they have not submitted anything to the contrary.
Commissioner Berkowitz said that a problem with residential and commercial relating to
noise can be expensive and time consuming.
Commissioner Stoebner stated that he would vote in favor of the motion, and that's why
he moved to add a condition to the resolution so the Conditional Use Permit can be
voided or taken away by the City if there is a problem with noise.
Roll Call Vote on Main MOTION. 4 Ayes. MOTION approved on a 4-3 Vote.
Commissioners Koehnen, Berkowitz and Stein voted Nay.)
B. QUALITY CARPET CARE (97158)
Chairman Stulberg introduced the request by Terry McKinzie/Quality Carpet Care to
operate an Interim Home Occupation License for carpet cleaning business at 12600 Sunset
Trail.
Planner Lindahl gave an overview of the November 20, 1997 staff report.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Terry McKinzie, the petitioner.
Mr. McKinzie stated that he withdrew his previous application and submitted a new
application that consists of downsizing the garage space. He commented that his
operation is very small, and he doesn't have the money to rent a retail space. He said that
no neighbors have talked to him directly, and if they have concerns, he would try to work
them out. Mr. McKinzie commented that he concurred with the staff report.
Chairman Stulberg opened the public hearing.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Terry LeDell of 250 Pineview Lane. Mr. LeDell asked if
the Conditional Use Permit limits the number of vehicles and employees. He wanted to
know if the business could continue to grow since there is enough for four parking spaces.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Paul Tolikkinen of 12518 Sunset Trail. Mr. Tolikkinen
stated that he objects to the piles of dirt that are being hauled in, as it slopes down to his
property, which could create a drainage problem.
Planning Commission Minutes
November 25, 1997
Page #253
Chairman Stulberg closed the public hearing.
Planner Lindahl stated that Condition #4 of the resolution requires that all company
vehicles shall be parked in the garage or the driveway in the rear yard. Director Hurlburt
commented that there is no limit on the number of vehicles that you can park in a
residential district, whether vans or personal cars. Planner Lindahl stated that the dirt is
for the garage construction and is part of the building permit, which deals with the erosion
control issues. Director Hurlburt said that the issue is not connected with the Interim
Home Occupation. Chairman Stulberg suggested that the building department should be
notified if there is an erosion problem.
MOTION by Commissioner Thompson, seconded by Commissioner Stoebner
recommending approval of an Interim Home Occupation License for Terry
McKinzie/Quality Carpet Care at 12600 Sunset Trail. Roll Call Vote. 7 Ayes.
MOTION approved unanimously.
Chairman Stulberg called a recess at 9:15 p.m. and reconvened the meeting at 9:25 p.m.
C. RICHO INVESTMENTS (97159)
Chairman Stulberg introduced the request by Richard Whinnery/Richo Investments for a
Preliminary Plat of two existing lots into four single family lots to be called "Loves
Addition" located east of Xenium Lane, south of 37th Avenue North, and north of 36th
Avenue North.
Planner Rask gave an overview of the November 20, 1997 staff report.
Commissioner Stein stated that he thought the side yard setback is 15 feet. Planner Rask
stated that it is zoned RSF-2, which allows a six-foot garage side, but staff is requesting
10 feet to provide adequate area for surface water drainage. Director Hurlburt said that
when plats are created, outlots are put into the Homeowners Association. There may be
private convenants that govern outlots, which is beyond what the city can control. Before
a final plat can be recorded, the applicant has to establish clear ownership to record that
plat. Director Hurlburt stated that some homeowners associations (HOA) have let go of
their outlots because of various reasons. This particular HOA decided that they wanted to
sell it. When new plats come in whether a PUD or not, the outlot could end up in
someone else's hand.
Commissioner Thompson asked if the city owns any outlots through tax forfeiture that
might be developed. Director Hurlburt responded that it would depend upon the
individual situation.
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November 25, 1997
Page #254
Chairman Stulberg introduced Dick Whinnery, the petitioner. Mr. Whinnery stated that
staff suggested they approach the HOA for an easement over outlot B to build one lot,
which they agreed to sell. Mr. Whinnery stated that the property is getting close to tax
forfeiture. He said that the HOA needs a quorum of the homeowners to purchase the
property. Mr. Whinnery stated that their original layout was to put a driveway off of
Xenium, but staff indicated that no more curb cuts are allowed, so they needed to work
with the homeowners to get access across the outlot. He said that they are not planning
on doing anything with the outlot, just bring the driveway through from
37th Avenue. Mr.
Whinnery stated that sewer and water is stubbed in for the site, and the proposal meets all
standards for the subdivision.
Chairman Stulberg opened the public hearing.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Helen Fern of 13405 37th Avenue North. Ms. Fern stated
that they closed on their home in June, 1997. When they purchased their home there were
told that Outlot B was an unbuildable lot and would remain as is. They relied on this fact
and were attracted by the wooded, natural buffer Outlot B afforded their new home. She
stated that they do not oppose the three lots, but oppose the driveway through Outlot B.
She said that there could be a shared driveway with the existing home, or the driveway
could come through the retaining wall. Ms. Fern commented that the HOA did agree to
sell the outlot to the developer with conditions. The driveway was to be placed the
maximum distance away from her home. She asked how the residents can prevent the
new owners from removing more trees after the plat is approved. She asked how the
residents can protect the restrictions on the outlot. Ms. Fern requested that the city
forester be required to walk off and stake the site with them, as the plan is not accurate.
She asked if there will need to be a retaining wall since they will be grading down four
feet. Ms. Fern wanted to know if there would be construction traffic through the outlot.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Sherman Mitchell of 13400 37th Avenue North. Mr.
Mitchell questioned why there couldn't be an access off of Xenium Lane, as he sees many
driveways off of Xenium Lane, and doubts there are numerous accidents that occur. He
suggested that a stop sign or stop light be placed at
37th Avenue to allow time to back out
onto to Xenium Lane. Mr. Mitchell stated that there would be more of a safety hazard
with construction traffic going through on Wedgewood Lane to Outlot B, and they
shouldn't have to use Outlot B. Mr. Mitchell said when he purchased his property, he was
aware of outlots and was told that the association had never met on a formal basis. Mr.
Mitchell said he was never notified of the HOA meetings. He said that the way it was
proposed at the HOA meeting was that there were back taxes and special assessments and
the oulot needed to be sold. Mr. Mitchell stated that he checked into this with the senior
appraiser who told him there was nothing due on the outlot. Mr. Mitchell asked for a
clarification what assessments are due or paid on it, and if there is any written
documentation supporting it.
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November 25, 1997
Page #255
Chairman Stulberg introduced Steve Piazza of 13410 361h Avenue. Mr. Piazza stated that
traffic has increased dramatically on Xenium Lane. He said that there is a stop sign at
341h
Avenue, which doesn't do much good, as drivers do rolling stops. Mr. Piazza stated that
if a stop sign was placed at 371h Avenue, he was not sure it would have any added value.
Mr. Piazza said that the HOA met many times and all homeowners were notified. He
stated that the HOA decided to sell the lot based on certain requirements.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Carl Hedberg of 13420
361'`
Avenue North, representing the
HOA. Mr. Hedberg stated that the HOA consists of 18 homes. The HOA met several
times. He said that whether there are assessments or not, there is no need for an outlot.
He stated that they do not want an access off of Xenium, but rather they would like to see
the driveway through the outlot. Mr. Hedberg commented that there were plenty of
opportunities for all homeowners to attend those meetings, which had relatively small
turnouts. He said that the HOA supports the development.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Howard 7uul of 3615 Wedgewood. Mr. 7uul stated that all
18 homeowners were invited to attend the meetings. At the voting meeting, 11 owners
attended, with seven agreeing to sell. He said that he sympathizes with the Ferns, as they
had certain expectations with an outlot when they purchased their home. Mr. 7uul said
that if the driveway was off Xenium Lane, it would be a concern for many years to come.
Mr. Mitchell stated that when he learned of the vote, he notified the HOA President, to
tell him that he was never made aware of the meeting, but was assured that there would be
another meeting. He said this differs from what he is hearing tonight, as seven out of 11
homeowners at the meeting voted to sell the property. He said that safety is still a
concern.
Chairman Stulberg closed the public hearing.
In response to issues/questions, Planner Rask stated that the developer did propose access
off of Xenium Lane. He said that staff gave the applicant several alternatives, including
the elimination of Lot 4, shared access, or access over Outlot B. He stated that to wrap
the driveway around the existing home for a shared driveway would not be an easy task.
Director Hurlburt stated that the City Council has been discussing the issues of stop signs,
and are looking at establishing a firmer policy with more specific criteria. The City
Council put a moratorium on resident -initiated stop stops, although the City can still look
at City initiated stop signs. She explained that you need a high volume of traffic with lots
of turns to warrant a stop light. She said that the City tries to limit stop signs on collector
streets in order to keep the traffic on the collector street so vehicles don't go through the
residential area.
Planning Commission Minutes
November 25, 1997
Page #256
Chairman Stulberg asked if there was a stop sign at 37th Avenue, would staff s
recommendation have been different. Planner Rask replied negatively. He said that this
proposal works better for the site, as it save trees and provides a buffer.
Director Hurlburt asked about the status of the retaining wall. Planner Rask stated that
the retaining wall is in adequate shape and the cut could be made if needed.
Chairman Stulberg asked if the applicant would have had an easement for the outlot would
staff s recommendation have been the same. Planner Rask replied affirmatively.
Planner Rask stated that the city can't prevent private homeowners from cutting down
trees.
Chairman Stulberg asked if there is a need for other retaining walls to protect from
erosion. Planner Rask responded that staff is recommending the house maintain a 10 -foot
setback to provide sufficient area for a drainage swale and to prevent the need for a
retaining wall.
Mr. Whinnery stated that construction traffic would be limited through the outlot, and the
grading area would be off of Wedgewood Lane. Construction traffic would be coming
through the outlot, but they will not be doing anything to the outlot. They want to
preserve the trees.
Chairman Stulberg asked if there were convenants on the sale of the outlot. Mr. Whinnery
replied that they agreed not to take out any trees more than necessary for the driveway.
He said that they agreed to put a statement into the closing documents prohibiting the
owner from removing any trees, other than diseased trees. Mr. Whinnery commented that
the title opinion shows back taxes on Lot 2, Outlot B, which he has a copy of, and that the
city also has a copy.
MOTION by Chairman Stulberg, seconded by Commissioner Koehnen recommending
approval of a Preliminary Plat for Richard Whinnery for Loves Addition located east of
Xenium Lane, south of 37th Avenue and north of 36th Avenue.
Commissioner Thompson stated that he was stunned that this can happen with an outlot,
and intends to make a motion to table the application for an opinion with the city attorney.
Commissioner Koehnen asked if the comments on Page 3 of the staff report was a
satisfactory explanation. Commission Thompson replied negatively, as it was dedicated as
open space; what the opinion talks about is density. Planning Supervisor Senness stated
that they have had the discussion with the attorney in a couple of instances, and the
bottom line is that the conditions went away with the PUD. She stated that the city
attorney said if there was an inconsistency created with the Comprehensive Plan, then the
City would have the opportunity to say no. Director Hurlburt noted that all contact with
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November 25, 1997
Page #257
the attorney relating to this issue has been verbal. Commissioner Thompson said he would
prefer a written opinion from the attorney. Commissioner Berkowitz concurred with
Commissioner Thompson. Chairman Stulberg stated that he was not in favor of tabling,
as he believes the attorney has given an expert opinion. Commissioner Thompson said
there is a difference with expert testimony on factual issues.
MOTION by Commissioner Thompson, seconded Commissioner Berkowitz to table the
item until January 15, 1997 for a written opinion by the city attorney. Roll Call Vote. 3
Ayes. MOTION failed on a 3-4 Vote. (Commissioner Stoebner, Koehnen, Stein and
Chairman Stulberg voted Nay.)
MOTION to Amend by Commissioner Stein, seconded by Commissioner Koehnen
adding a condition to Condition #4 that on on-site meeting of all parties be held to finalize
the driveway location. Roll Call Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION carried on a 6-1 Vote.
Commissioner Thompson voted Nay.)
Roll Call Vote on Main MOTION. 4 Ayes. MOTION approved on a 4-3 Vote.
Commissioners Thompson, Berkowitz and Ribbe voted Nay.)
D. LEGACY, INC. (97164)
Chairman Stulberg introduced the request by Legacy, Inc. for a Conditional Use Permit to
operate an indoor skate park at 2735 Cheshire Lane North.
Planner Drill gave an overview of the November 20, 1997 staff report and the memo of
November 25, 1997.
Chairman Stulberg introduced Nan Morris and Chip Weeks, the petitioners. Mr. Weeks
stated that when dealing with a skate park there is a gray area, as no one really knows
anything about them. When there are 25 to 50 people a day, they will come in shifts,
usually for a period of two hours. The major demographics of participants are 10-17 year
olds with some adults. Ms. Morris stated that the entrance and exit are along Highway 55
where there is not that much traffic because the street is a dead end. Most of the kids will
be dropped off, therefore, the use will not require much parking. She said that the 17
spaces was determined by anticipating that there would be 50 kids at one time, not 25.
She said they could also park in the back. Ms. Morris stated that they would have seven
to ten employees on the site. She stated that skatebording is becoming a very popular
sport and the kids have no where to go. They would like to provide a supervised setting
for them. She said the only nearby park is located at
12th Street and Lake Street in
Minneapolis.
Chairman Stulberg opened and closed the public hearing as no one was present to speak
on the issue.
Planning Commission Minutes
November 25, 1997
Page #258
MOTION by Commissioner Thompson, seconded by Commissioner Stoebner
recommending approval of a Conditional Use Permit (per the revised plan) for Legacy,
Inc. to operate skate park at 2735 Cheshire Lane North.
Commissioner Thompson stated the burden of proof lies with the city to prove that the
Conditional Use Permit shouldn't be issued. He stated that the City doesn't have any set
standards related to parking for this type of facility. He said that the applicant has
rebutted the staff's findings, and the applicant has more experience with skate parks.
Commissioner Ribbe stated he will vote in favor of the motion because of the need for this
type of facility. He would like kids to engage in the sport some place other than the street.
Commissioner Koehnen stated that the number of cars is unsure, as many 16 and 17 year
olds will drive. Director Hurlburt stated that staff is concerned, as the applicant did not
provide staff with any data about how many participants would drive. She stated that the
applicant does not currently operate this type of facility. She said the applicant just stated
that there would be seven to 10 employees at one time, and if that's the case, staff would
need to increase the parking standards. Planner Drill commented that when staff met with
the applicant, the applicant stated there would be one to two employees at one time.
Chairman Stulberg asked if staff based the parking spaces on 50 people at a time. Planner
Drill replied affirmatively, noting that the applicant originally stated there would be up to
50 people at a time.
Commissioner Thompson said the 3:1 ratio was based on 50 people at a time. He stated
that Plymouth needs a facility for skateboarders.
Commissioner Koehnen commented that she was not sure all requirements have been met
for safety reasons.
Commissioner Stein asked what the green area was on the plan. Director Hurlburt replied
that it is existing yard area that can't be used for paving. Commissioner Stein asked how
they would provide for handicapped spaces and entrance. Director Hurlburt replied they
would have to build ramps that meet building codes.
Commissioner Stein said he agrees the city needs this type of facility, but he couldn't
support the motion, as this is not the right location for it.
Commissioner Koehnen asked what would happen if the business becomes so successful
that parking is not adequate. Chairman Stulberg commented that this type operation is
needed, but it's not the right place. Director Hurlburt stated if the business becomes so
big that it disrupted the other tenants, then there may be violations of the lease.
Commissioner Stoebner stated he would support the motion. Although it may not be the
best site, the trucks would be moving slowly. Commissioner Thompson stated that he
Planning Commission Minutes
November 25, 1997
Page #259
doesn't see that the Conditional Use Permit needs to comply with the traffic requirements.
Director Hurlburt replied that one of the parking requirements of the Conditional Use
Permit is that it meets all requirements of the zoning ordinance, which includes parking.
Commissioner Koehnen wondered if the item should be tabled to gather further
information on any other similar facilities to compare to regarding parking. She said that
the idea is good, but she is worried about safety and traffic.
Roll Call Vote. 4 Ayes. MOTION approved on a 4-3 Vote. (Commissioners Koehnen,
Stein and Chairman Stulberg voted Nay.)
7. NEW BUSINESS:
A. 1998 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING SCHEDULE
Director Hurlburt gave an overview of the proposed meeting schedule. She stated that the
City Council could change their meeting night, but the schedule should be approved.
MOTION by Commissioner Stein, seconded by Commissioner Koehnen to approve the
1998 Planning Commission Meeting Schedule. Vote 7 Ayes. MOTION approved
unanimously.
MOTION by Commissioner Thompson, seconded by Commissioner Stoebner to adjourn.
Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved unanimously. The meeting was adjourned at
11:15 p.m.