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HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 08-27-1998 SpecialAPPROVED CITY OF PLYMOUTH SPECIAL MEETING PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES AUGUST 27, 1998 MEMBERS PRESENT: Chairman Mike Stulberg, Commissioners Allen Ribbe, Jeff Thompson, Roger Berkowitz, John Stoebner, Kim Koehnen arrived at 7:11 p.m.) and Bob Stein MEMBERS ABSENT: STAFF PRESENT: Community Development Director Anne Hurlburt, Planning Supervisor Barbara Senness, Planners Kendra Lindahl, Public Works Director Fred Moore and Clerical Supervisor Denise Hutt 1. CALL TO ORDER: 2. INTRODUCTION: Director Hurlburt gave an overview of what has taken place thus far on the Comprehensive Plan Update and what is yet to be done after the meeting tonight. Director Hurlburt introduced David Licht, consultant from Northwest Associated Consultants. 3. REVIEW OF OPTIONS: Mr. Licht presented the City/Northwest Study Area Fact Sheet. He said that the Metropolitan Council has insisted that all units of government plan for a 20 year period. He stated that we are looking at what option is the best for northwest Plymouth. Mr. Licht presented the No Urban Option Plan stating that there would be a maximum of 29 additional dwelling units in the next 20 years; street improvements to Peony Lane, and Vicksburg Lane; and that the total city population will decrease by 5,000 by the year 2020. Mr. Licht presented the Partial Urban Expansion Plan and stated that a portion of the area east of Vicksburg is projected for large lot residential development, which would provide for existing large unsewered lots. The plan also includes options for Hampton Hills Golf Course and the land uses near the Schmidt Lake Road and I-494 interchange if it takes place. He commented that none of the options will dictate whether the interchange would happen. Mr. Licht presented the Complete Urban Expansion Plan stating that the entire City is projected for development by 2020. The plan also includes options for the Elm Creek Golf Course. He stated that this plan and the Partial Urban Expansion Plan provides for a small amount of commercial development. 4. RECOMMEDATION: Mr. Licht gave an overview of the August 20, 1998 NAC memorandum outlining their recommendation. He presented a map illustrating the northwest area and the surrounding areas in Hennepin County. He presented the Labor Force Trends Chart. Mr. Licht presented a sewer map depicting that development east of Vicksburg Lane would start around the year 2000 and west of Vicksburg Lane around the year 2006. He presented a map on the Growth Management Strategy Policy Area. Chairman Stulberg called a recess at 7:43 p.m. and reconvened the meeting at 8:00 p.m. 5. PUBLIC HEARINGS: Chairman Stulberg stated that all previous correspondence received prior to the meeting is now part of the public record. Chairman Stulberg presented a letter dated August 27, 1998 from Jeff and Liz Seaburg at 15740 County Road 47 stating their preference for complete urban expansion. Chairman Stulberg read a card filled out by Barbara Barnes of 15230 47th Avenue North stating that she prefers the no urban expansion option. Chairman Stulberg introduced Herb Albert of County Road 47. Mr. Albert stated that he has owned his property for 29 years. The taxes are about four times what he can get from any farming income. He said that there are nice residential developments near him. Mr. Albert stated that the residents are enjoying the agricultural land at his expense. He said that he doesn't think people that have five acres or more should have to develop if they don't want to. Mr. Albert urged the Commission to recommend at least partial development if not complete urban expansion. Chairman Stulberg introduced Richard Bloom of Weston Corporation. Mr. Bloom stated that when they developed their Nanterre project, they were forced to deal with issues such as Schmidt Lake Road which they had to build through their property. They provided the approach for the new bridge; sold part of their property for a new water tower; and, extended trails on the south side of Schmidt Lake Road. Mr. Bloom stated that Weston Corporation supports partial or full expansion. He said that with the complete urban expansion you can still maintain a rural character. He stated that they feel that providing sewer service from the south is preferable. Chairman Stulberg introduced Jeffrey Brown 17815 30th Place North. Mr. Brown said that he doesn't live in the northwest area, but he prefers no urban development. He said that if all of Plymouth is developed, other surrounding communities to the west may follow suit, which means people would have to move even further west to find a hobby farm. Mr. Brown said he doesn't believe that it will become an economic detriment with the no urban option, and that the residential roads will become overloaded. He said that there are other factors to consider besides economic issues. Mr. Brown said that by leaving the area undeveloped it gives people the option to live in a rural setting. Chairman Stulberg introduced Len Busch of 4045 County Road 101. Mr. Busch said that he owns 140 acres and moved to Plymouth in 1965. He said when he moved here he didn't want anyone else moving out to the area, but that is an unreal way of thinking. Mr. Busch said that Plymouth is going to continue to be urban and that the City has done a good job planning thus far. He asked if anyone is likely to buy 60 acres of land at $30,000 an acre and not develop it. He said that it's just not realistic. Chairman Stulberg introduced Patrick Busch of 15500 Medina Road. Mr. Busch declined to speak as Len Busch spoke for him. Chairman Stulberg introduced Brenda Chadwick, of 5720 Oakview Lane North. Ms. Chadwick commented that she lives on Bass Lake, and is concerned with what developing northwest Plymouth will do to the watershed. Ms. Chadwick stated that she hopes the Commission will consider options that will make the water clean and provide for a healthy environment. Chairman Stulberg introduced Vic Custardo of 14525 45th Place North. Mr. Custardo said that he has lived in Plymouth for three months, but has never been in the northwest area. He asked the Commission to keep in mind that they work for all the citizens of Plymouth, not just the people in the northwest area. He believed that going for complete urban expansion will create major traffic jams and over population of areas. Chairman Stulberg introduced Linda Donaldson of 11620 54th Avenue North. Ms. Donaldson stated that she is a member of Bass Lake Association Improvement Area. She commented that the entire northwest area of Plymouth is half of the watershed district of Bass Lake, and the area drains into Bass Lake. She said that the northwest area of Plymouth is an island and is important because of water quality. Ms. Donaldson stated that all citizens of Plymouth profit from clean water. Ms. Donaldson said that the aquifer level is extremely low and the deeper you have to go the harder the water gets. Ms. Donaldson said that it is expensive to build water towers and water treatment centers. She asked who profits from development of northwest Plymouth. Ms. Donaldson said that the watershed is an island and needs to be left as an island. She said that taxes will go up and economic quality will go down. Ms. Donaldson stated that Plymouth should put the money into preserving the rural quality of the area. Chairman Stulberg introduced Jerry Fischer of 4630 Fernbrook Lane. Mr. Fischer stated that he has been a resident for 15 years and operates a greenhouse business on his property. He stated that he is opposed to urban sprawl and the loss of trees and animals. He said that the new developments surrounding his property have caused a destruction of trees and wildlife and that many people couldn't hold onto to their property because of street assessments. Mr. Fischer said that the aquifer has dropped over 12 feet in the last few years due to development surrounding him. Mr. Fischer presented a piece of western red cedar. He said that this is the Commissions' chance to decide how the area should be developed and to consider what is the proper kind of housing, while being sensitive to nature and the environment. Chairman Stulberg introduced Peter Flint of 6110 Lawndale Lane North. Mr. Flint stated that he is opposed to any development. He expected the consultant's report to be factual. He said that he is confused on how traffic will be congested if northwest Plymouth is not developed. Chairman Stulberg introduced Charles Frye of 5455 Vagabond Lane North. Mr. Frye said that he has lived in Plymouth for 15 weeks and moved to the area to be in the country but yet close to the metropolitan area. He said that it seemed that the consultant's recommendation was slanted to complete urban expansion. Mr. Frye stated that the Commissioners should pick the facts out and come up with their overall recommendation. Chairman Stulberg commented that the Commission has been working on this for the last couple years and him personally for the last 18 years. He said that the Commission has received stacks of information and requested that the consultant come back with a recommendation. Chairman Stulberg introduced Al Goblirsch of 5505 Vicksburg Lane North. Mr. Goblirsch stated that he owns about eight acres of land and that he has nothing against people wanting to keep northwest Plymouth rural, but that they seem to have no sympathy for those that have more than five acres of land. He said that the City regulates how many acres you can sell, and if they are going to impose a penalty, they should give some also. He said that there is no way derive an income off the land for agriculture purposes. Mr. Goblirsch said that they should be allowed to sell their land and that the taxes on their property prevent them from living at a good level. Mr. Goblirsch commented that Plan #3 would be the best and that people that have five acre lots can keep them. Chairman Stulberg introduced Paul Hetchler of 5855 Dunkirk Lane. Mr. Heltcher said that he has lived here for 27 years because they loved the rural setting and that they have a unique place to live. He said that developers and planners think that open land sits there waiting for people to come in so they can cash in for lots of money. Mr. Hetchler said that he has a lifestyle that he truly loves. He was appalled that the City hired a consultant to get the same story that Maple Grove is getting. Mr. Hetchler said that there is a large horse population in the northwest area and they have the finest horse facilities in the area. Mr. Hetchler commented that once the bulldozers roll it is gone and we could look like Maple Grove. Mr. Hetchler said that if the 20 acre minimum could be reduced to a five acre minimum it would make people more happy. He said that the farming potential that does exist is niche farming — he provides hay to the horse farmers, and others have greenhouses and fruit farms. Chairman Stulberg introduced Lee Keely of 16525 Birch Briar Trail. Ms. Keely said that she is involved with the Gleason Lake Improvement Association. She said that their lake has deteriorated because of over -development in the area. They spent over $15,000 just this year just to get boats into the water. She asked where the water will come from if more people are brought into the northwest area. She said that wetlands and lakes are vital to our continued survival. Chairman Stulberg introduced George Ragus of 15210 47th Avenue North. Mr. Ragus stated that he moved here from Chicago looking for a more rural life and if he wanted urban sprawl and a lake, he would've moved to south Minneapolis. He said that he lives near Turtle Lake where you used to be able to catch bass in the lake, but now you can't even see the lake. He said that Plymouth's identity is not urban. He asked why we need to fit into Maple Grove, Minnetonka, and Medina and why we can't we be an individual community based on our needs and wants. He said that with a more subdued setting of rolling hills of green there would be less road rage. Chairman Stulberg introduced Roger Scherer of 12601 Bass Lake Road. Mr. Scherer sated that he has served on the Planning Commission and is now on the Metropolitan Council. He said that the Metropolitan Council has provided for major interceptors that will have to be paid for. He said that people on Bass Lake should be just as worried about the treatment of sewage from horses and the fertilizer that they use on their lawns. He said that the consequences are with us already from what we do. Mr. Scherer said that there needs to be an orderly and progressive development of the area. Chairman Stulberg introduced Thomas Reiersgord of 4500 W. 44th Street, Minneapolis. Mr. Reiersgord stated that he thinks people want to keep the area as a pristine park as an area for their enjoyment. He commented that the City could buy up the northwest area and keep it vacant. The City can't impose that on property owners. Mr. Reiersgord stated that he was surprised by the consultant's recommendation and supports his conclusion. He said that the area has been leap frogged already with major development to the west and to the south. Mr. Reiersgood said that the northwest area is part of an urban area and if the metropolitan area didn't exist we wouldn't be here. People that really want a rural lifestyle can move further out. He said that when the decision was made for the high school on Peony Lane it generated traffic and public facilities which are an urban fact of life. Mr. Reiersgood said that it is time to get on with planning the urbanization of the area. Chairman Stulberg introduced Sally Strand of 11931 54th Avenue. Ms. Strand presented a written copy of her presentation and an article "Crafting Better Urban Watershed Protection Plans" to the Commission. Ms. Strand stated that she is a member of the Bass Lake Improvement Association. She commented that she is concerned that the Environmental Quality board no longer has a member serving on it that lives on Bass Lake. Ms. Strand stated that Mr. Scherer got his house on Bass Lake because he makes his living selling lumber to developers and also sits on the Metropolitan Council. Ms. Strand said that she can't believe a few horses will add up to the sewage that 80,000 additional people will add to the system. She stated that she is concerned with the quality of water and believes that the best option is no development. Ms. Strand stated that water knows no political boundaries. She said that the City will have to set aside a huge amount of money to restore such lake as Medicine, Parker, Bass and Gleason. She said that stress on the aquifer needs to be considered. Ms. Strand said that if we do not create a new way to develop northwest Plymouth we would have to eventually spend money at a higher expense than at predevelopment stages to improve lakes/streams/aquifers by structural improvements, animal waste/livestock management, erosion and sedimentation control methods, and public education. Chairman Stulberg introduced Jan Symchych of 6110 Lawndale. Ms. Symchych said that complete urbanization is an old and conventional way of thinking. Ms. Symchcych stated that there are other communities that have islands of green in their urban areas and that islands can help to reduce the pressures of everyday life. She challenged the Commission to think beyond the "pave it" approach. She said that the Metropolitan Council and the City of Maple Grove shouldn't define what the City of Plymouth does. Chairman Stulberg introduced Paul Wardell of 16395 County Road 47. Mr. Wardell stated that the one of outcomes from the May 14, 1997 public forum was that 60 percent of the people from northwest Plymouth said that the open space is the best thing that they liked about the area. Mr. Wardell stated that northwest Plymouth is not an island, but rather a peninsula. Mr. Wardell presented a copy of his interviews that were conducted from August 15 to August 21, 1998. Mr. Wardell stated that in his interview with Sandy Larson, Planing and Zoning Assistant for the City of Medina, she indicated that Medina does not want or care for the interceptor and that they don't want to grow a lot. In his interview with Paul Robinson, Medina City Clerk, he said that it is their policy to do everything possible not to get the interceptor in the City of Medina and will do everything to prevent that. In his interview with Mike Munson, Metropolitan Council staff member, he indicated that if Plymouth doesn't grow there is some question whether to build the interceptor at all to Medina. Mr. Wardell presented a petition that was signed by the residents of Camelot requesting the no growth option to save the open spaces in northwest Plymouth. Mr. Wardell stated that in an interview with John Holquist, deputy director for Governor Carlson, he stated that the Metropolitan Council could be abolished. He said that with a new governor doing a plan may not make sense. Chairman Stulberg introduced Lowell Whiteis of 15325 County Road 47. Mr. Whiteis stated that Plymouth is one of the nicest communities in the metropolitan area and that didn't happen by accident. Mr. Whiteis said that the recommendation for full urbanization is a great balance of the needs and it will not pave northwest Plymouth. He asked what the area would look like if we started putting septic systems in all over. Mr. Whiteis questioned the need for a commercial property at Vicksburg Lane and County Road 47, but stated he would leave that to the experts. Chairman Stulberg introduced Reg Kroskin of 5845 Troy Lane. Mr. Kroskin stated that he once served on the Planning Commission. Mr. Kroskin stated that Plymouth is unique in that one-third of the area is water. Mr. Kroskin commented that the quality of life is important and that he favors the partial development option. He said that we should preserve what we have already. Chairman Stulberg introduced Linda Abelson of 138 Peninsula Road. Ms. Abelson stated that she cares deeply about the water quality and was appalled with the Rottlund development taking place near her. She said that open space is important. Ms. Abelson commented that if you own the Mona Lisa you don't have the right to destroy it, as there are laws preventing it. Ms. Abelson said that the northwest area is Plymouth's Mona Lisa. Chairman Stulberg introduced Debra Tschannen of 5600 Vagabond Lane. Ms. Tschannen commented that they moved here from Brooklyn Park 11 years ago. She is concerned that Maple Grove's traffic issues should not create the planning for Plymouth. She said that the vast development in Maple Grove has created serpentine roads. The water and small lakes in Maple Grove have gone from blue to green. The forest area and wild life went away when the new Wayzata High School was built. She said that wetland replacement ponds are just surface runoff ponding with lots of weeds. Ms. Tschannen stated her concern that the recommendation is based just on financial issues. She urged the Commission to proceed extremely slowly and carefully because once you bulldoze you can't recover the trees and water quality. Chairman Stulberg introduced Betty Baer of 5540 Ranier Lane. Ms. Baer stated that she concurs with Ms. Tschannen's comments. Ms. Baer said that if partial expansion was approved they could sell off five acre parcels. She said the Commission should look at the possibility of making smaller lots. Ms. Strand stated that the subwatershed plan is not expected to cost more, probably less than traditional watershed plans. Mr. Fischer stated that the issue boils down to the money. He said that land is one thing that money can not really buy and we should take care of it. Mr. Ragus wants the Commission to be the lead sled dog, if not, the view never changes. Chairman Stulberg introduced Brian Nosse of 14420 51st Avenue. Mr. Nosse stated that he recently bought an undeveloped lot in northwest Plymouth, and only now found out that the City is looking at changing the very reason he bought the lot. Mr. Nosse stated that he understands that people with large parcels have a tax issue but shouldn't impose that on everyone else. Chairman Stulberg closed the public hearing. Chairman Stulberg called a recess at 9:55 p.m. and reconvened the meeting at 10:07 p.m. Chairman Stulberg noted that the Planning Commission works for the whole City of Plymouth and not just their ward. Director Hurlburt said that right now outside the urban area the minimum lot size is 20 acres, which is a zoning ordinance requirement that was put in place in the early 1980s to control unsewered subdivisions. She stated that septic systems can be a major source of pollution. One of the things looked at in the inventory was soils. Most of the soils in northwest Plymouth are not suitable for septic systems. Mr. Licht explained the soil limitations without central sewer systems. Director Hurlburt commented that staff looked at the inspection records for existing sewer systems, and in the last year every single one has had to be replaced. She said that staff would discourage any plan that encourages more septic systems. Mr. Licht commented that the commercial development that is proposed on the partial and full expansion plans are for a basic convenience type of business to allow someone to fill up with gas and pick up convenience items. He explained that Maple Grove cut back their planned commercial development for the area and that convenience trips reduce the traffic in the whole area. He commented that the commercial issue should be addressed after an option is selected. Director Hurlburt stated that the City has been working on a water quality plan that the Commission will see very soon that deals with wetland protection. She said that fixing problems after the fact is very expensive and most development has occurred before this plan. She commented that ten years ago there were no treatment ponds. The City will continue to work on water quality. Director Hurlburt said that land uses all have impacts on water quality, but it's how you develop also. She said that staff needs to know whether we are planning for urban development first before addressing the water quality issues. The City has to do a Comprehensive Land Use Plan in order to deal with a water plan. Mr. Licht stated that water quality is an issue no matter what option is selected. Mr. Licht stated that the City is responding to state legislation requiring the Comprehensive Plan, not the governors office. The requirement would have to be legislated away, it wouldn't just go away with a new governor. Mr. Licht commented that he tried to summarize discussions and information that is in other documents which are available to the public. Director Hurlburt stated that the City of Medina is trying to avoid ever needing he interceptor, but it is an unrealistic position as they are currently using Plymouth's system. Plymouth will not be able to accommodate Medina continuously. We will need the capacity for our own growth and will not be able to accommodate them. Mr. Licht commented that he had several conversations with the City of Medina which are documented. He said that traffic coming from Rockford, Buffalo and other points west is a concern to Medina. Director Hurlburt commented that the City will see more traffic on Vicksburg Lane and Peony Lane. The major roads will carry traffic out of Maple Grove and onto the metropolitan system. Commissioner Ribbe stated that it seems a workable compromise comes down to the size of lot and asked what size of lot is safe for a septic system. He asked if there was any history of what happens when you allow a septic system on a five acre lot. Director Hurlburt replied that it is related to the soils not the size of the lot. You need a large enough lot with good soils to last 15 years and then you typically have to replace the system because it gives out. She stated that septic systems have to be maintained and a new system costs between $15,000 to $20,000. She said that if you have good soils you might get by with a one and one-half acre lot. She cautioned that with rural lots you have to think beyond just the septic system, you also have to have a lot of road to serve five acre lots. Services will also be more expensive with large lots. She stated that you can also get land uses that become nuisances, i.e. dumping, animal waste, trucking operations, illegal businesses. Commissioner Thompson sated that there is an assumption that if there are five acre lots there is no sewer. Director Hurlburt commented that is generally true because you can't afford to put sewer in. She said that there probably won't be septic systems in the partial or full development options. Commissioner Ribbe commented that he can't see someone buying five acres and then letting it become a nuisance. He said that it sounds like the key issues are water quality and sewer. He asked what the amount of undeveloped acreage is. Mr. Licht stated that there is 1,104 vacant land which is classified as agriculture. Director Hurlburt commented that the 1,104 acres doesn't include the golf courses or larger lots with homes. She said that it is roughly one-third of the northwest area. Commissioner Ribbe calculated that it would be about a $33 million land acquisition for the City to buy the vacant land. Commissioner Thompson stated that they need some idea how the water quality will be impacted with the various options. Director Hurlburt replied that it is very hard to generalize between sewered and nonsewered lots. Pollution is easier to treat when you bring it all to one point. If everyone is treating their own sewage you don't know how they are treating it. She stated we are now doing more collecting and treating surface water now with new developments. Director Moore commented that Plymouth was forced to put in a sanitary sewer around Bass Lake because of all the bad septic systems. He said that once the Land Use Guide Plan is done then the hydrological plans can be done. Commissioner Thompson asked that at what point does it become cost effective on the lot size. Mr. Licht stated that with anything over three-fourths to one acre lots it will cost too much to put in a sewer system. Director Moore stated that it typically costs $50/ft for sewer; street cost is $100/ft; and water cost is $20 to$25/ft. Commissioner Berkowitz commented that a correction should be made on Page 8 of the consultant's report to state that the impact on school districts says Orono, but should be Osseo. He said that regardless of the growth option that is selected, there is growth pressure on the school district. He stated that under the partial and full options there is an opportunity for school growth for both the Wayzata and Osseo School Districts. Mr. Licht stated that we are exploring further with both school districts and details will have to be addressed. He said that identifying school sites would be premature. Commissioner Berkowitz commented that even with the no growth option, the City should continue discussions with the school districts about an additional elementary school in the area. Commissioner Stein asked if there is a possibility that the Elm Creek Interceptor won't go through no matter what option is selected. Mr. Licht replied that it is up to the Metropolitan Council and the City of Plymouth. He said that Plymouth will soon be needing the capacity that the City of Medina is using and that leaves Medina without service. He said that the cheapest section of the interceptor would be through Plymouth. Mr. Licht stated that it seems logical that the Elm Creek interceptor will come and the timing is optimistic for the year 2006. The Metropolitan Council is saying the year 2005, but it is looking like the year 2010 is more realistic. Director Moore stated that Plymouth has been utilizing capacity out of the current systems and even if partial development is selected, there won't be any capacity left for Medina. He said that the City of Plymouth provides services to the City of Medina on a one year contract basis. Commissioner Stein asked if the full growth option is just for economic reasons. Mr. Licht replied that it is a factor, but the City Council needs to know what the cost would be for each option. Other factors mentioned in the tactics interviews were the need for a diversity of housing and to keep some of the rural character. He said that full development keeps 20% unsewered. Mr. Licht added that preservation of natural resources was a concern and it can be managed better with controlled urbanization. Director Hurlburt stated that the fiscal study covers the City's general fund. She added that any new development would pay its own way and not be a burden on the rest of the City. Commissioner Stein commented that even if full growth option is selected, it doesn't mean that owners have to sell. Mr. Licht replied affirmatively. He commented that the City has recognized that is an issue, and they don't want them to be forced to sell because of added assessments. Commissioner Berkowitz stated that he would like to see more of a comparison of the three options pertaining to surface water issues. Commissioner Thompson noted he would like to see more information from the City of Medina and the Metropolitan Council before the item goes to the City Council. Commissioner Stoebner stated that the City of Medina can't use Plymouth's sewer system indefinitely. Director Moore stated that the Metropolitan Council has to provide the sewer by either constructing the Em Creek interceptor or constructing a pressure main to Golden Valley. He said that it would be more economical to construct the Elm Creek interceptor. Chairman Stulberg asked if something would have to be done with the transportation system no matter what option is selected, specifically Peony Lane. Mr. Licht replied affirmatively. Director Moore stated that there will have to be an improved roadway under all three options. MOTION by Commissioner Koehnen, seconded by Commissioner Stein, recommending complete urban expansion of northwest Plymouth. Commissioner Koehnen stated that the recommendation is a plan and just that. She said that planning does not equate to development and there will be various options, but it serves the whole City to look at the entire area now. Commissioner Berkowitz commented that even with no growth it is not uncontrolled, we are still planning but in a different sense. He said that he didn't know if the Commission has enough information to make a decision. He stated that he would like more detail on the water pollution aspects on the various options. Commissioner Stoebner asked for a clarification of the timetable by which the plan needs to be completed. Director Hurlburt replied that the statutory timetable is the end of the year, but that the City won't make that. She said not every city will make the deadline. Director Hurlburt stated that the sooner we have a handle on the northwest area, the sooner staff can proceed with the land use, zoning, capital improvements and other elements. Commissioner Thompson asked if the Commission is just voting on a concept or direction. Director Hurlburt replied affirmatively. Commissioner Stein asked that if the motion passes and the City Council approved it, how do the dots end up on the map. He said that if there is no timing crunch, he would like more information on the Commissions' role in the details of the plan. Director Hurlburt stated that by a recommendation, the Commission is asking the City Council to put their stamp of approval on whether or not the northwest area would develop, but the Planning Commission is in charge of the entire Comprehensive Plan. There will also be more opportunities for citizen input along the way. Commissioner Stein asked what happens if we get further down the road and find out there is a major impact on the watershed district, can it be revised. Mr. Licht stated that the recommendation simply sets a general direction for sewer service, the policy element will come later. He said that the policy element will state that if there is a problem with water quality you will stop development until it is taken care of. He said that whatever is decided tonight is not set in stone. Chairman Stulberg commented that every project looked at goes through the Development Review Committee and projects have been halted because of water quality issues. Commissioner Thompson stated that his vote won't be based on the Metropolitan Council forcing the City to do something, but rather looking at maximizing the landowner's choice, as they have a right to use their property just like anyone else. He said that he thinks sewering the area is better than septic systems. He commented that there is a diverse selection of lots available. Commissioner Ribbe asked within this concept is it appropriate to limit the lot size. Director Hurlburt stated that the motion made is to plan for urban services within the area by the year 2020. The concept does not get into lot sizes, just overall density, and it wouldn't be appropriate to specify a lot size at this stage. Chairman Stulberg commented that the Comprehensive Plan is a broad brushed approach to development. SUBSTITUTE MOTION by Chairman Stulberg, seconded by Commissioner Ribbe recommending partial urban expansion for the northwest area. Chairman Stulberg stated that the partial option satisfies the diversity of housing and hits all of the criteria we have looked at and keeps the plan moving. Commissioner Stoebner asked how the partial expansion addresses the landowners that own 20 to 30 acres. Chairman Stulberg answered that it doesn't unless it's in the area that is to be urbanized. Under full urbanization they could have the same problem if they were in the 20% that was slated for no development. Commissioner Stoebner commented that with the partial expansion it runs an arbitrary line through the area. Chairman Stulberg stated that the partial expansion probably doesn't address the cost and revenue of the infrastructure as well as the complete urbanization option does. Commissioner Ribbe stated that he can't support full development, as it sends a signal that we want density, and we don't want to be a Maple Grove. He said that the northwest area needs to be preserved. Commissioner Koehnen stated that she is trying to look at this as long range planning and the complete urban expansion is the best way to plan for it. She said that there have been issues brought up during the public hearing and they will need to be addressed as the process continues. Commissioner Thompson stated that he would vote against the substitute motion. He said that with complete expansion large lots will be maintained. He said that large lots can also be accomplished under the partial expansion option, but it is more on a targeted fashion. With the partial option, a line is drawn on the map and everyone on one side can develop and the ones on the other side can't. Commissioner Koehnen stated that the term "complete urban expansion" is very misleading. Commissioner Stoebner stated that he sees two competing issues — we want people to be able to divide and sell, and those that have horses can maintain their way of life. Commissioner Berkowitz commented that there hasn't been any discussion on the no growth option, but he would consider the partial growth option the lesser of two evils. Commissioner Stein stated that the complete urban expansion allows the most options for the people that live in the northwest area. Commissioner Berkowitz stated that the majority of people that have spoken or that they have heard from don't want any development to take place. Commissioner Ribbe moved to call the question, seconded by Commissioner Koehnen. Vote 7 Ayes. Roll Call Vote on allowing a Substitute MOTION. 4 Ayes. MOTION approved on a 4-3 Vote. (Commissioners Koehnen, Thompson, and Stein voted Nay.) Roll Call Vote on Substitute MOTION. 3 Ayes. MOTION denied on a 3-4 Vote. Commissioners Stoebner, Koehnen, Thompson and Stein voted Nay.) MOTION by Commissioner Koehnen, seconded by Commissioner Thompson recommending complete urban expansion for the northwest area of Plymouth. Roll Call Vote. 5 Ayes. MOTION approved on a 5-2 Vote. (Commissioners Ribbe and Berkowitz voted Nay.) MOTION by Commissioner Berkowitz, seconded by Commissioner Stein to adjourn. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved unanimously. The meeting was adjourned at 11:43 p.m.