HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 05-17-2006Approved Minutes
City of Plymouth
Planning Commission Meeting
May 17, 2006
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chair James Holmes, Commissioners E. J. Clyman, Kathleen
Murdock, Sarah Anderson, Melissa Musliner, Karl Neset and Frank Weir
MEMBERS ABSENT: None
STAFF PRESENT: Community Development Director Anne Hurlburt, Planning
Manager Barbara Senness, Senior Planner Shawn Drill, Senior Planner Marie Darling,
Planner Joshua Doty, Public Works Director Doran Cote and Office Support
Representative Janice Bergstrom
1. CALL TO ORDER - 7:00 P.M.
2. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
3. PUBLIC FORUM
Chair Holmes introduced Gerald Westby, 4952 Comstock Lane N. Mr. Westby said he
was submitting a letter to the Planning Commission from Maureen Modrack, 4950
Comstock Lane N. requesting a special meeting for concerned citizens who live near the
Hollydale Golf course area. Mr. Westby asked if the comprehensive plan update for
northwest Plymouth impacts rezoning and density of areas outside the northwest area.
Chair Holmes said that action would be instituted by the City Council instructing the
Planning Commission to delve further into that specific issue.
4. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Neset, to approve the May
17, 2006 Planning Commission Agenda. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
5. CONSENT AGENDA
A. APPROVAL OF THE MAY 3, 2006, PLANNING COMMISSION MINUTES
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Clyman, to approve the
May 3, 2006 Planning Commission Minutes. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
6. PUBLIC HEARINGS
A. COREY SCHERBER (2005130)
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Chair Holmes introduced the request by Corey Scherber for an interim use permit for
filling operations at 15 Evergreen Road.
Senior Planner Drill gave an overview of the May 10, 2006 staff report.
Commissioner Clyman asked if the fill was brought in by the Scherber Company.
Senior Planner Drill responded yes.
Commissioner Clyman asked if the fill contains contaminants.
Senior Planner Drill responded that the fill contains dirt and clay soils from the Target site
in Medina.
Commissioner Clyman asked if the fill affects drainage.
Senior Planner Drill responded no, and said the applicant installed the required silt fencing.
Commissioner Clyman asked how the six-month term to complete the project is enforced.
Senior Planner Drill said the City would pursue whatever action is necessary, including
legal action, to make sure the project is completed.
Chair Holmes called on the applicant, but the applicant was not present.
Chair Holmes opened the public hearing.
Chair Holmes introduced Karla Haley, 3826 Linden Drive E., Medina MN. Ms. Haley said
she represents Medina neighbors who abut the Elm Creek Golf Course and are concerned
that the permit was not sought prior to bringing the fill. She asked who they should alert if
the noise ordinance is violated. Ms. Haley asked who is going to maintain the site, and if
the applicant could be fined if procedures are not followed.
Chair Holmes introduced Joe Knudson, 3828 Linden Drive, Medina MN. Mr. Knudson
said he is a homeowner behind the property. Mr. Knudson stated this is not vacant land
and that there are renters. He said the neighbors had to endure smoke as a permit had been
obtained to burn tree stumps on the site. Mr. Knudson said there is a lot of junk on the
property including concrete and various pieces of trash. Mr. Knudson said there were
hazardous materials behind the barn, and he has pictures of containers of gasoline. Mr.
Knudson said they were using this as a place to store heavy equipment and would come at
5:30 a.m. to refuel equipment.
Chair Holmes closed the public hearing.
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Chair Holmes asked about the procedures for violations.
Senior Planner Drill said the grading permit and financial guarantee allow the City to have
the work done at the owner's expense, should they fail to complete it. He said that
landowners are responsible for maintenance. Senior Planner Drill said the City has the
ability to levy fines for violations of the Zoning Ordinance. Senior Planner Drill said the
City is aware of renters on the property, and that the owner has made application to the
City for a Rental Dwelling License. He said he could not speak to the issue of hazardous
materials, as he was unaware of that.
Chair Holmes asked about the process to determine if there are hazardous materials on the
site.
Planning Manager Senness said she would notify the Housing Inspector to visit the site to
see if there are hazardous materials. She added that neighbors should call 9-1-1 if there is
an issue with the time of day the filling or grading operations occur.
Commissioner Musliner asked if staff would have recommended approval if the applicant
had requested the permit prior to the filling.
Senior Planner Drill responded affirmatively.
Commissioner Weir asked how these buildings were accessed before this road was filled.
Senior Planner Drill said the existing driveway along the west lot line would be replaced by
the new one.
Director Hurlburt added the interim use permit is like a conditional use permit with a time
limit, and unless the City can show cause to not to issue, must issue it. She said property
owners have rights provided they comply with the City's conditions. She said the applicant
chose to apply for permits to come into compliance with the ordinance, rather than having
the City take legal action against them to remove the fill.
MOTION by Commissioner Murdock, seconded by Commissioner Weir, to approve the
request by Corey Scherber for an interim use permit for filling operations at 15 Evergreen
Road. Roll Call Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved unanimously.
B. FRANKIE'S TOWING (2006015)
Chair Holmes introduced the request by Frankie's Towing for a zoning ordinance text
amendment, site plan amendment and conditional use permits to allow an automobile
towing business with outdoor tow yard at 5616 State Highway 169.
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Planner Doty gave an overview of the May 9, 2006 staff report.
Commissioner Neset asked why this type of use was not included in I-2, whether it was
proximity to a residential neighborhood or there had been no formal requests.
Planner Doty said there currently is only one towing business, located near LaCompte Park,
which is non -conforming. Planner Doty said the City has never had a formal request for a
towing use.
Commissioner Neset asked how long the Conditional Use Permit would run and under
what conditions would it be revoked.
Planner Doty said the Conditional Use Permit runs with the property. He said if any of the
established terms or conditions are violated, the City would follow up.
Commissioner Anderson asked if the Zoning Ordinance text amendment would allow all
properties with I-2 and I-3 zoning to approve this usage.
Planner Doty said yes and that each request would go through the Conditional Use Permit
process.
Commissioner Anderson asked if there is an alternate way to achieve the distance from
residential without the 500 -foot condition.
Planner Doty said staff reviewed different numbers for distance, and determined this
seemed to be a good distance. He said he was not aware of any other way to accomplish
this goal.
Commissioner Murdock asked which conditions applied to the towing business are
comparable to other uses within those I-2 and I-3 districts, without being more or less
cumbersome. She said a lot of these conditions would apply to other uses.
Planner Doty said some of the proposed conditions are found in other parts of the
ordinance, such as screening for outdoor storage. However, he stated that this group of
conditions are established for the towing business and are more restrictive.
Director Hurlburt agreed some of the conditions are not a lot different from conditions for
outside storage. She said these conditions are particular to storage of vehicles, particularly
damaged vehicles which could be prone to leaking. The conditions would cover some of
these issues and ensure there would be no pollution problem. Director Hurlburt added that
the concern is not necessarily Frankie's Towing, but that it would open the door to a junk
yard. She added it makes sense to have this use in an I-2 or I-3 with sufficient conditions
to ensure it does not become a nuisance.
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Commissioner Murdock said she does not see a problem, but wanted to be consistent
across the board with conditions for other types of uses, so we are not placing more
conditions than necessary.
Commissioner Musliner asked if this amendment would affect tow trucks with tow yards
or tow trucks to service centers.
Director Hurlburt said auto repair is listed as a use in several zoning districts. She said
there is nothing in the ordinance that allows this separate type of use.
Chair Holmes introduced the applicant, Frank Manaro, 1400 Rhode Island Avenue N.,
Golden Valley MN.
Commissioner Clyman asked if there would be vehicles towed along the service road or
56th and Bass Lake Road.
Mr. Manaro said he can always use 49th Avenue if there was a concern.
Commissioner Clyman asked if he towed semi -tractors.
Mr. Manaro responded that only cars and trucks are towed.
Chair Holmes opened and closed the public hearing as there was no one present to speak
on the item.
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Anderson, to approve the
request by Frankie's Towing for a zoning ordinance text amendment, site plan amendment
and conditional use permits to allow an automobile towing business with outdoor tow yard
at 5616 State Highway 169. Roll Call Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
C. CITY OF PLYMOUTH (2006021)
Chair Holmes introduced the request by the City of Plymouth for a zoning ordinance text
amendment to allow electronic signs in the P -I (Public/Institutional) District.
Senior Planner Drill gave an overview of the May 9, 2006 staff report.
Commissioner Weir asked if the new sign for Wayzata Central Middle School could have a
logo since the existing one does.
Senior Planner Drill said that new sign would have the school name and logo in the fixed
portion along the top of the sign. He said that logos would only be precluded from the
electronic portion of the sign.
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Commissioner Clyman asked for clarification on the Park and Recreation Department's
request.
Senior Planner Drill said they asked that Condition E, regarding restrictions on when the
signs could be lit in the evening, be changed from 10 p.m. to midnight in order to make the
language consistent with existing sections elsewhere in the Code. He said Condition F
currently says the message could change up to two times per day, and that they asked if that
could be changed to two times per hour.
Commissioner Musliner asked where the Parks Department would like to place electronic
signs.
Senior Planner Drill said Plymouth Creek Center and Zachary Playfield have been
mentioned.
Commissioner Musliner noted the Wayzata Middle School sign has a residential
neighborhood right across the street from it, and said she would prefer the 10 p.m.
requirement for that sign.
Chair Holmes opened and closed the public hearing as no one requested to speak on the
item.
Commissioner Anderson agreed with Commissioner Musliner regarding electronic signs in
areas where residential is right across the street. She said she would prefer the 10 p.m.
cutoff for the Central Middle School site.
Chair Holmes agreed with Commissioner Anderson and Commissioner Musliner.
Director Hurlburt suggested changing Condition E to add "unless otherwise approved by
the City" at the end of "signage shall not be illuminated between the hours of 10 p.m. and 6
a.m."
Commissioner Clyman agreed but said in fairness for different schools, there should be
some foot standard in place from residential properties.
Director Hurlburt noted that Condition B of the draft ordinance already addresses the
setback distances from residential properties.
MOTION by Commissioner Murdock, seconded by Commissioner Weir, to approve a
zoning ordinance text amendment to allow electronic signs in the P -I District, and
amending Condition E to read "signage shall not be illuminated between the hours of 10
p.m. and 6 a.m., unless otherwise approved by the City", and amending Condition F to read
the message could change up to two times per hour, unless otherwise approved by the
City". Roll Call Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
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D. CBR DEVELOPMENT, LLC (2006022)
Chair Holmes introduced the request by CBR Development, LLC. for a rezoning and
preliminary plat for "Four Points of Plymouth" to create four lots on property located at
15910 and 16000 Old Rockford Road.
Senior Planner Darling gave an overview of the May 9, 2006 staff report.
Chair Holmes introduced the applicant, Tom Rollings, 4550 Weston Lane N.
Commissioner Murdock asked if the large number of big trees on Rockford Road and
Vicksburg Lane would all be removed and replaced.
Mr. Rollings said the majority of the trees will be taken out to accommodate the City's
grading requirements. He added they are more than replacing the number of tree inches
required and are trying to accommodate everybody's wishes.
Commissioner Musliner asked for a description of the large pond abutting the 4"' property.
Chair Holmes introduced Marty Campion, Otto Associates, 9 West Division Street,
Buffalo MN, who said he is the civil engineer for the proposed project. Mr. Campion said
the pond adjacent to the west property line will take the majority of the runoff from the
site. He said the piping is to the north, and the emergency overflow is to the west. He said
it is approximately 2 feet higher than the height of the pond.
Commissioner Musliner asked how deep the pond would be.
Mr. Campion said the average water level in the pond is 3.11 feet. He added that it looks a
lot deeper because the pond elevation is lower than the adjacent ground. He said the
property on the west side is at 974 and normal water of the pond is required to be 970
elevation. A retaining wall will be placed down around the pond and would not be in the
drainage and utility easement.
Commissioner Clyman asked how the sanitary sewer lines would be abandoned and
inquired about the filling of the septic system.
Mr. Campion said the existing sanitary sewer runs along the north property line and south
to approximately 20 or 30 feet east of the west property line. He said the sanitary sewer
would be abandoned and relocated to accommodate the pond. Mr. Campion said the City
requires the first length of pipe to be removed and the rest of the pipe blown full of sand
and left in place. Mr. Campion said the septic system would be removed if located where a
structure would be built. If it is in a backyard area, the septic would be drained, crushed
and filled with sand as approved by the MPCA.
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Chair Holmes opened the public hearing.
Chair Holmes introduced Ron Meyer, 15905 43rd Avenue N. Mr. Meyer said there are lot
of kids in the neighborhood and asked about the time frame Weston Lane would be torn
up, when construction would start, and what the plan is for the heavy equipment.
Chair Holmes introduced Jim Pomroy, 4305 Weston Lane N. Mr. Pomroy said the
elevation of the pond is a concern. Mr. Pomroy said he has a pond at the back of his
property and currently any runoff from the property drains through a pipe under his yard
with a manhole cover. He asked if the 970 elevation is below the average elevation of that
pond as he is concerned about any flow out of the pond flowing into his and his neighbors'
yards. Mr. Pomroy asked about the time line of the proposed development. He asked if
the temporary cul-de-sac would be returned to normal when the permanent cul-de-sac is
established. Mr. Pomroy asked if the large tree by the new cul-de-sac would be removed.
Chair Holmes closed the public hearing.
Chair Holmes asked about water elevation and drainage to the pond.
Mr. Campion said the pond is proposed to discharge through a pipe into an existing
manhole north of the property. The elevation of the pond to the west is 970.3. He said the
discharge from the pond to the storm sewer system is higher but contained within that pipe.
Mr. Campion said the emergency overflow is on the northwest corner with a 973.5
elevation. He said the 100 -year flood level is 972 and the pond is designed to raise to 972.
Chair Holmes asked about the timing of the project.
Mr. Campion said they would start as soon as necessary approvals from the City are
received. He said they might begin the end of June and from start to restoration, he
predicted a 2 -month project. Mr. Campion added that the removal of the temporary cul-de-
sac was a staff recommendation, and the area would be restored with sod.
Director Hurlburt asked how long the construction of homes would take.
Mr. Rollings said once the street and utilities are in place, home construction for this
quality and price range could take 5-8 months each.
Chair Holmes asked about the large tree in question.
Director Hurlburt stated the tree is not on the proposed site. She asked how close the pipe
is to the tree and the age of the tree.
Mr. Pomroy said the tree is old and suggested it be removed.
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Director Hurlburt said that is the opposite of what we usually hear people requesting.
Director Hurlburt said the owner should talk to the developer and can discuss the tree issue.
Commissioner Anderson asked about the hours of operation for construction.
Planning Manager Senness stated that construction hours are from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m.
weekdays, and on Saturdays 8 a.m. to 6 p.m.
Mr. Campion said the demo of the existing houses and the installation of site
improvements could access from either Vicksburg Lane or Old County Road 9.
Commissioner Murdock said this proposal raises the issue of density. She said this is a
two -acre site, and LA -2 allows 6-12 units per acre. Commissioner Murdock asked if the
site characteristics make it impossible to meet that density. She commented these are very
big houses and big lots, and asked if a higher density was looked at.
Senior Planner Darling said staff encouraged the applicant and several other developers to
come forward with a single family development consistent with the RSF-2 zoning district
to make a seamless fit into this neighborhood. She pointed out that all access is from
Weston Lane which goes through a single family neighborhood, so this proposal would be
a better blend into the existing neighborhood.
Commissioner Clyman said he is curious if the sanitary lines are PVC.
Public Works Director Doran Cote stated the pipes are PVC, and added it is standard
procedure to blow abandoned lines with sand. He said that is more typical than fully
removing them.
Commissioner Clyman thanked staff and the applicant for improving the safety of the
intersection and future improvements of the turn lane onto Vicksburg Lane.
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Neset, to approve the
request by CBR Development, LLC. for a rezoning and preliminary plat for "Four Points of
Plymouth" to create four lots on property located at 15910 and 16000 Old Rockford Road
Roll Call Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
7. NEW BUSINESS
A. PLYMOUTH COMPREHENSIVE PLAN UPDATE
Chair Holmes introduced the Plymouth Comprehensive Plan Update for discussion.
Director Hurlburt gave an overview of the May 12, 2006 staff report.
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The Planning Commission recessed at 8:48 p.m. and reconvened at 8:58 p.m.
Chair Holmes introduced Edward Svetc, 5330 Vicksburg Lane N. Mr. Svetc said he has
lived here for 30 years. Mr. Svetc said a petition will be presented next week which
supports Plan 3 and represents about 70% of the landowners in Area 1 who want to
develop their land. Mr. Svetc said he thinks they should have some say in what happens in
their area and likes that the process allows this. Mr. Svetc said he is against the 100 -foot
setback. He said the transitional water and sewer does not make sense when the majority
want development. Mr. Svetc said it is nice to preserve trees, but oak wilt is a major
problem. He said you have to dig down 32 feet to put in sanitary sewer and the disturbing
of trees will cause them to die anyway.
Chair Holmes introduced Kim Vohs, Housing Director for Interfaith Outreach and
Community Partners (IOCP), 110 Grand Avenue S., Wayzata MN. Mr. Vohs said in the
fiscal year ending 3-31-06, IOCP served 730 families with affordable housing needs. He
stated the need continues to grow and IOCP turns people away every month. Mr. Vohs
said the majority of the clients are at or below 60% of median income. Mr. Vohs said the
long term solution is to develop more affordable units and IOCP would like to see the land
guided to higher a density. Mr. Vohs said the Met Council set the affordable housing unit
goal at 1,045 by the year 2020 for City of Plymouth, and asked how many affordable units
could be developed under Sample Plans 1, 2 and 3. Mr. Vohs said Vicksburg Crossing has
7 units per acre, and Common Bond purchased it for $100,000 an acre and made it
affordable. Today land prices are double in that area. He said the standard of affordable
units would be six units per acre, but not up to six. He said many times a project is
proposed at a higher density, and all too often the City scales it back. Mr. Vohs said he
was pleased to see Director Hurlburt's presentation of affordability with the density
guidelines. He said LA -3 and LA -4 truly allow affordable housing to be developed. Mr.
Vohs said 3-6 units per acre density probably would not be developed at the 6 -unit level.
Mr. Vohs said to suggest those land use designations to allow affordable housing down the
line is a stretch and cautioned the Commission to look at this carefully. Mr. Vohs said he
is pleased residents are calling for Plan 3 and said that is a reasonable starting point. Mr.
Vohs asked how we can add more areas of LA -3 and LA -4. He said we have a city staff
very capable and very trained to do that. Mr. Vohs said the open land cleared for farming
could be an area where affordability could be developed. Nobody wants to knock down
trees and disturb wetlands. Mr. Vohs said the rising fuel prices are not going away and
there is a lot of development pressure because people are not going to want to live far out
anymore. Mr. Vohs stated more people come to Plymouth to work than go out of
Plymouth to work. Mr. Vohs concluded that the opportunity with the land is present, and
said he hopes the City can respond with greater density and greater affordability.
Commissioner Clyman said in the last 1.5 years, Vicksburg Crossing is the only project
that has had a significant amount of affordable housing. He said there seems to be a lot of
funding sources, yet there seems to be a restriction on the amount of funds that can make
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affordable housing a reality. Commissioner Clyman asked for feedback about limitations
on affordability housing projects.
Mr. Vohs said there is a challenge of funding these projects, and said he worked with an
experienced developer, Common Bond. Mr. Vohs said this northwest area has not been
served by sewer and water, and now by creating the opportunity with open land, there is an
opportunity to attract developers. Mr. Vohs said when it is allowed and encouraged, and
supported by local policies, developers will come forward with projects. Mr. Vohs said he
knows of other non-profit developers who want to work in the area. Mr. Vohs reiterated
this is Step 1 -- if maximum density is not allowed, projects are stopped before you even
open the door.
Chair Holmes introduced Sandy Steiner, 5160 Trenton Lane. Ms. Steiner said she
represents the Open Space and Housing For All Coalition. Ms. Steiner said the Met
Council predicts a net growth of 2500 people in Plymouth between 2010 and 2020. She
said the current land use proposal of Sample Plan 3 will make it difficult to meet the
housing requirement the Met Council has put in place. Ms. Steiner said we need more
LA -4 land use designation. She said three specific areas to change from LA -3 to LAR -4
would be 1) on the north side of Co. Rd. 47 between Vicksburg and Co. Rd. 101, 2) the
east side of Co. Rd. 101 south of Co. Rd. 47 and north of Medina Rd. and 3) the east side
of Vicksburg south of Co. Rd. 47 and north of the railroad. Ms. Steiner said the Coalition
needs land for life cycle housing, and wants to make sure housing provides open space
with emphasis on preserving natural resources.
Chair Holmes introduced Victor Sandler, 3010 E. Medicine Lake Blvd. Mr. Sandler said
he is very concerned about global warming and said it is a reality that glaciers are melting.
He said the cause of global warming is greenhouse gases from burning fossil fuels, which
in Plymouth is gasoline and oil. Mr. Sandler said 70% of the oil we use is for
transportation and urban sprawl which promotes more driving, which is bad. Mr. Sandler
said as a community, we have a responsibility to our children to develop the northwest area
to promote mass transit and shorten commuter distance, and providing workforce and
affordable housing, which are good ideas. He asked the Planning Commission if his
concerns are also their concerns and said we have a responsibility to decrease urban sprawl
and promote the decrease of global warming.
Commissioner Musliner said she could relate to Mr. Sandler's global warming concerns,
and asked which plan he considered the most responsible.
Mr. Sandler responded that Plan 3 allowed more work force housing which would promote
more mass transit and shorter commutes. Mr. Sandler said Plan 1 encouraged
McMansions" and urban sprawl which promotes longer commuting times and would be
bad for the environment. Mr. Sandler said the Federal Government has done very little
across the country, but more and more communities are taking action to improve mass
transit and cut down on commuting times and he would like to see Plymouth do the same.
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Commissioner Musliner said she agreed with the global warming issue but said an increase
in density promotes an increase in the number of people driving cars so that contributes to
the problem on the other side. She agreed mass transit is a great alternative.
Chair Holmes introduced Len Luedke, 17910 Co. Rd. 47. Mr. Luedke said he would like
the Planning Commission to recommend to the City Council to remove the 100 -foot
setback along Co. Rd. 47, Lawndale Lane and Vicksburg Lane. Mr. Luedke said he is
presenting a petition opposing the 100 -foot setback which is signed by the majority of
landowners along these highways.
Chair Holmes introduced Mark Kraemer, 4715 Yuma Lane N. Mr. Kraemer said he lives
in the Autumn Hills neighborhood. Mr. Kraemer said he and neighbors in Nanterre have
organized and are concerned about the potential residential development of Hollydale Golf
Course. He said at the May 3, 2006 meeting, it seemed evident that potential development
of land outside of that area is being brought in to meet certain housing quotas. Mr.
Kraemer said these neighborhoods want to be involved in the process early if Hollydale is
being factored in.
Commissioner Neset suggested a straw poll on the Commissioners' positions on sample
plan uses.
Commissioner Anderson recommended 1) Sample Plan 3 east of Vicksburg Lane, but
would flip the LA -3 and LA -2 areas at the northwest corner, 2) Sample Plan 2 change the
land east of Peony, north of Schmidt Lake Road directly across from Wayzata High School
from LA -2 to LA -3 or LA -4, 3) and on Sample Plan 1 change the land west of the Elm
Creek Golf Course to LA -3 or LA -4. Commissioner Anderson said the area south of
Highway 55 should all be LA -4. She said the commercial and industrial zoning should
remain as is.
Commissioner Weir recommended Sample Plan 3 with some modifications.
Commissioner Murdock said she liked Plan 3, modified to increase density closer to major
thoroughfares. She said some LA- 4 designation makes sense.
Commissioner Clyman supported Plan 2 with modifications to push more density to the
south, such as LA -4 land around the Elm Creek Golf Course. Commissioner Clyman said
he appreciates Mr. Vohs' comments about using existing open spaces. Commissioner
Clyman said he has concerns about density along Vicksburg Lane and Co. Rd. 47 with the
traffic volume and 50 mph. speeds. He asked if it could take 20 years to get the speed limit
reduced. Commissioner Clyman said when the roads have not been improved, he is
concerned about pushing density. Commissioner Clyman said the I -P zone south of State
Highway 55 would be more compatible zoned LA -4, looking to the west with Medina.
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Commissioner Musliner said she supported Plans 2 and 3.
Commissioner Neset endorsed Plan 3 primarily because it has higher density, and is more
in keeping with the regional plan at the Met Council level. Commissioner Neset said they
have heard about concerns to increase density even further from affordable housing
advocates. Commissioner Neset said he agrees there is some opportunity with Sample Plan
3 to increase density. He specified the two areas in the southwest corner north and south of
Highway 55. Commissioner Neset suggested LA -4 north of Highway 55 and LA -3 south
of Highway 55. He added that since this area is right on Highway 55, potentially a small
transit center could locate there. Commissioner Neset said the Commission has heard from
residents from all but 70 acres in an entire area who are pushing for Sample Plan 3, and
said he is starting to rethink whether new guiding designations are needed to make the rural
to urban transition. Commissioner Neset said possibly the new zoning classification, i.e.
LAR -3, may not be needed. Commissioner Neset said in short, the City could continue
using normal procedures and processes.
Chair Holmes commended staff on an excellent job on a task that without staff's help and
guidance, would be extremely difficult to move forward. Chair Holmes said he is
supporting Sample Plan 3 as we don't have enough density for affordable housing. He said
folks don't want to be forced out today by being taxed off their land. Chair Holmes said
we need to look at increasing density and add LAR -4 so can have some greater density
particularly in light of the need to have transition. Chair Holmes said he is concerned
about the lack of commercial space to provide services to buy a gallon of milk and those
quick trips to the Cub store increase traffic. Chair Holmes said we need balance on the
density issue — if zoning is dense enough, it will reduce the number of cars on the road.
Chair Holmes said if the necessary infrastructure is in place, you don't have to drive a car
to get essential services.
Commissioner Anderson said she had recommended the LA -4 property on Plan 3, south of
Elm Creek, could remain industrial because if you are putting people in higher density they
need some place to work. She said she agreed with Chair Holmes regarding commercial
space and places for residents to work. She said the small area to the north should remain
commercial.
Commissioner Weir said there is a need to have an area that is more dense for the
possibility of moderately priced housing. Commissioner Weir recommended the following
areas be LAR -4, 1) the large area in the northwest corner would blend in better with the
Maple Grove properties, and 2) the LA -3 area along Co. Rd 101 north of Highway 55.
Commissioner Murdock agreed with Commissioner Neset and said she thinks we could
handle achieving rural to urban transition without new land use guidings, and use the same
processes we have used in past. In addition, Commissioner Murdock said she supports
Commissioner Weir's and Commissioner Anderson's recommendation for commercial and
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industrial properties next to Co. Rd. 101. She referenced Ms. Steiner's map and said she
supported LA -3 be changed to LA -4 for all green shaded areas.
Commissioner Clyman said LA -4 south of Highway 55 is a good area for higher density.
Commissioner Clyman said he respects the theory behind Commissioners Anderson and
Murdock to add commercial, but noted there is a lot of commercial space one mile down
Highway 55 and there is industrial space open in the City. Commissioner Clyman said
adding more commercial is not necessarily right when we could put in more density.
Commissioner Clyman concurred with Commissioner Anderson that the LA -3 area by
Schmidt Lake Road and Peony Lane could be a higher density. He added this area is built
to handle traffic and it is manageable. Commissioner Clyman said he has questions about
putting more traffic and density on Co. Rd. 47 and Vicksburg Lane. He complimented Mr.
Svetc and property owners in that area who want more density.
Commissioner Musliner said she agrees with the LA -4 designation for the properties on the
west side, and to keep the southern portion LA -4. Commissioner Musliner recommended
keeping the LA -4 designation, and agreed with Commissioner Clyman about already
having commercial property in the City; she recommended keeping density. Commissioner
Musliner asked about the northwest corner property owned by the David Lee funeral home
and asked if this would be kept commercial.
Commissioner Neset said he likes the direction the discussion is going, and recommended
LA -4 guiding for areas north and south of Highway 55 which border Hamel. He said we
do need to be cognizant of the fact that industrial zoning is important for jobs, but there is
industrial space just down the road and immediately west. Commissioner Neset said as a
guy who works in beautiful, downtown Hamel, there are some older businesses and the
potential for redevelopment along Highway 55. He said with people's proximity to their
jobs, corner stores will come up, like the Super Target in Medina. Commissioner Neset
said he believes there are opportunities to increase density without causing traffic issues
along the northern part, now LA -3, along Co. Rd. 47. He asked what MnDOT might think
about the level of density on the roads. Commissioner Neset said the rural to urban
transition, and changing land use designations may be taking more time, money and
energy, and maybe we should stick with our well-developed processes which we know
best.
Chair Holmes agreed with the LA -3 and the additions of LA -4. He said it is interesting to
move away from the overlay concept. He said we don't have guiding in northwest
Plymouth that is appropriate for today, and they have to start somewhere. Chair Holmes
said he didn't know how using existing guiding would fit.
Commissioner Neset clarified the guiding could be as simple as LAR -1 can be LA -1,
LAR -3 can be LA -3, using the same designations for simplicity's sake.
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
May 17, 2006
Page 15
Director Hurlburt gave an overview of the public comments for specific areas as detailed in
her May 12, 2006 memo.
Director Hurlburt said the LA -2 and LA -3 land use designations on the two properties on
the northwest corner, east of Vicksburg Lane were maintained from the current
Comprehensive Plan. She said the LA -2 property is part of the Taryn Hills property and all
of the greenway strip was LA -2, with higher density to the south.
Commissioner Clyman inquired about projected staging.
Director Hurlburt said we need a sewer and water plan to see what would make sense.
Commissioner Clyman asked about "clustering" and other standards in the overlay.
Director Hurlburt said on the architectural side, suggestions included standards that
discourage monotonous design in buildings, or large expanses of townhomes that look like
barracks. Clustering would discourage mass grading of sites. She said density is one
factor, and to leave half the land as open space but cluster buildings would have less
impact on sites and trees. Director Hurlburt said from major roads the site may look more
rural and would preserve the character of the property. She said the concept we are looking
for would maintain this rural feel with more variety and more interest in architecture.
Commissioner Clyman said clustering might be a good way to preserve the natural
characteristics along Co. Rd. 47.
Director Hurlburt said each development would have to be reviewed to meet the standards,
goals and principles in the plan.
Commissioner Clyman asked how density affects the improvements along roads.
Director Hurlburt stated more people means more traffic. She noted that density in our
City is not the only thing affecting traffic. Director Hurlburt said even without urban
development in Plymouth, we are hearing that Lawndale and Co. Rd. 47 are already
experiencing congestion at times. Director Hurlburt said traffic is happening around us in
addition to our own traffic. She added that development may mean more people would be
able to help pay for those roads, whereas if the land is not developed at all it would be hard
for us to improve roads. Director Hurlburt said the City can acquire right-of-ways as
property is developed. She clarified that the speed limit is set by MnDot and is based on
the flow of traffic and reasonable speeds for traffic. Director Hurlburt said the
development of an area, adding more driveways and traffic may eventually justify lowering
the traffic speed.
Public Works Director Doran Cote noted that controlling the speeding and the speed limit
are two different things.
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
May 17, 2006
Page 16
Director Hurlburt explained the overlay is where all the standards are suggested and the
transition is for the density.
MOTION by Commissioner Murdock, seconded by Commissioner Neset, recommending
approval of Sample Plan 3 with the following modifications: 1) all of Planning Area 1 east
of Vicksburg be LAR -3, 2) west of Vicksburg Lane and north of Co. Rd. 47, except the P -I,
would be LA -4. 3) east of 101, south of Co. Rd. 47 would be LA -3 or LA -4 4) the LA -3
area east of the Elm Creek Golf Course would be LA -4, and 4) south of Highway 55 would
be LA -4.
Commissioner Neset said while this plan is more dense than he considered, he feels it is an
adequate recommendation to the City Council.
Commissioner Weir said he supported the motion.
MOTION by Commissioner Clyman for a friendly amendment for the property north of
Co. Rd. 47 bordering Maple Grove to be LA -3 rather than LA -4. He said he supported the
LA -3 guiding of the Elm Creek Golf Course.
Planning Manager Senness addressed the commercial at the northwest corner. She said the
line will be placed at the creek with commercial to the west and residential to the east.
Commissioner Anderson asked if the northwest corner could be a funeral home and a
corner grocery.
Chair Holmes said he supports LA -3 for the area north of Co. Rd. 47. He said Co. Rd. 47
could become a four -lane if necessary and the 100 -foot setback would allow for the orderly
growth in the area.
Director Hurlburt clarified that the intent of the additional 100 feet is not to expand roads,
but rather that the structures would be set back and allow more common open space,
thereby allowing the road to have a more rural character and landscaping.
Chair Holmes said with the setback, the higher density offsets the larger setback
requirement.
Commissioner Anderson said she is concerned about the need for commercial as there will
be more people to service, potential school impacts, and increased traffic. Commissioner
Anderson made a friendly amendment to change the parcel at the northeast corner of Co.
Rd. 47 and Peony to commercial. She said it would be better safe than sorry, and it can be
changed later.
Approved
Planning Commission Minutes
May 17, 2006
Page 17
Commissioner Clyman said he liked Chair Holmes' reasoning for the LA -4 designation
north of Co. Rd. 47. He said LA -4 zoning and 100 -foot setbacks might encourage an
increase in density and keep open space around it.
Chair Holmes said with higher density without the development coming up to the road, you
still can gain a higher density without building to the edge of things.
Commissioner Clyman withdrew the friendly amendment.
Commissioner Murdock said she accepted Commissioner Anderson's friendly amendment
for commercial zoning at the northeast corner of Co. Rd. 47 and Peony Lane.
Commissioner Musliner said she is not wholeheartedly in support of Sample Plan 3. She
said she is in favor of less density south Highway 55. She said she doesn't want Plymouth
to turn into development after development as Maple Grove did, for example along
Lawndale Lane north to Wal-Mart. Commissioner Musliner said she is not in support of
the motion.
Commissioner Anderson said she shares Commissioner Musliner's concerns regarding
density. Commissioner Anderson said she lives in a townhome complex and knows open
space and elbow room make a better environment for everyone involved. She said she is
definitely in favor or moving something forward and though she is not happy with Plan 3,
she will support it to help move this along to the City Council.
Roll call vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved. Musliner voting Nay.
Commissioner Clyman stated that the inclusion of the 100 -foot setback is why he voted
yes; without the 100 -foot setback he said he would have pushed for LA -3.
8. ADJOURNMENT
MOTION by Chair Holmes without objection to adjourn the meeting at 10:36 p.m.