HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 11-07-2007Approved Minutes
City of Plymouth
Planning Commission Meeting
November 7, 2007
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chair James Holmes, Commissioners Terry Jaffoni, James
Davis, Erik Aamoth, Frank Weir, Karl Neset and John Cooney. (Commissioner Cooney
arrived at 7:15 p.m.)
MEMBERS ABSENT: None.
STAFF PRESENT: Planning Manager Barbara Senness, Community Development
Director Steve Juetten, Senior Planner Shawn Drill, Planner Joshua Doty, Public Works
Director Doran Cote, Park and Recreation Director Eric Blank, Superintendent of
Recreation Diane Evans, City Engineer Moberg and Office Support Representative Janice
Bergstrom
1. CALL TO ORDER - 7:00 P.M.
2. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
3. PUBLIC FORUM
4. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Davis, to approve the
November 7, 2007 Planning Commission Agenda. Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved.
5. CONSENT AGENDA
A. APPROVAL OF THE OCTOBER 17, 2007 PLANNING COMMISSION
MINUTES
Commissioner Davis asked that a correction be made on Page 7, paragraph 3 to read
that buildings along Vicksburg Lane should not have an entrance facing Vicksburg."
Commissioner Jaffoni asked that a correction be made on Page 7, paragraph 1 to read,
asked if the walkway could loop on the west side of the Cub parking lot in front of the
retail located on the west side."
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Jaffoni, to approve the
amended October 17, 2007 Planning Commission Minutes. Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION
approved.
B. SERIGRAPHICS SIGN SYSTEMS, INC. (2007095)
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MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Jaffoni, to approve the
request by Serigraphics for a variance to allow a second freestanding sign for AGA
Medical Corporation at 5050 Nathan Lane North. Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved.
6. PUBLIC HEARINGS
A. RYAN COMPANIES US, INC. (2007092)
Chair Holmes introduced the request by the Ryan Companies US, Inc. for a site plan,
conditional use permit, and variance to allow construction of a pharmacy within the Taryn
Hills commercial site located in the northeast quadrant of County Road 47 and Vicksburg
Lane North.
Senior Planner Drill advised that the public hearing would be continued to December 5,
2007. He said the applicant will be submitting revised plans.
Chair Holmes opened the public hearing and continued it to December 5, 2007.
B. MESSIAH UNITED METHODIST CHURCH (2005099)
Chair Holmes introduced the request by the Messiah United Methodist Church for a site
plan amendment, conditional use permit amendment, and variances to allow a church
expansion for Messiah United Methodist Church located at 17805 County Road 6.
Planner Doty said the applicant has requested additional time to address staff comments.
He asked that the public hearing be opened and continued.
Chair Holmes opened the public hearing and continued it to December 5, 2007.
7. NEW BUSINESS
A. ERICKSON RETIREMENT COMMUNITIES LLC (2007104)
Chair Holmes introduced the request by Erickson Retirement Communities for a pre -
application sketch review of a potential continuing care retirement community to be called
Erickson Elm Creek Campus" for property located north of Highway 55 and east of
County Road 101.
Senior Planner Drill gave an overview of the November 1, 2007 staff report. Senior
Planner Drill noted that Condition 213 requiring park dedication fees is incorrect and would
be removed from the resolution. He explained that this project would not be subject to
park dedication requirements because the property would not be subdivided.
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Commissioner Weir asked if Erickson Retirement Communities is aware that the southeast
11 acres are shown for possible playfield expansion.
Senior Planner Drill answered they were recently made aware and this issue is still being
discussed.
Commissioner Weir said this would have an adverse affect on the whole project.
Commissioner Jaffoni asked if this 11 -acre area was part of the preliminary guiding to
LA -2.
Senior Planner Drill said the 2030 plan shows LA -2 guiding for the entire site, including
the 11 acres. He added that staff recommends keeping the 11 acres guided P -I. This would
allow for ball field expansion or the Erickson Plan.
Commissioner Jaffoni noted the property to the southeast is shown as LA -2, so LA -2
guiding would be more in keeping with the area.
Senior Planner Drill said that this site is one parcel and the City did not look specifically at
a different land use designation within this parcel. That is why the entire site is showing as
LA -2 on the 2030 Preliminary Plan.
Planning Manager Senness added that the Planning Commission recommended an LA -3
designation, but the City Council chose to show LA -2 on the preliminary plan.
Commissioner Jaffoni asked if there was something specific the City Council was trying to
accomplish, or if consistency was the rational to their thinking.
Senior Planner Drill said the City did not know what development form this site might take
when the preliminary plan was developed. Access was supposed to be through Evergreen
Road, but this plan would address that concern.
Planning Manager Senness added that the Planning Commission considered LA -3 for the
affordable housing aspect.
Commissioner Davis asked for clarification of the park dedication issue.
Senior Planner Drill explained that under State law, the City could not collect park
dedication fees because the developer is not subdividing the property.
Chair Holmes introduced Linda Fisher, representing Erickson Retirement Communities.
Ms. Fisher said this would be the first Erickson retirement community in the Twin Cities
area, and reviewed their locations nationwide. Ms. Fisher gave an overview of the
proposed project which would provide continuing care for seniors. She pointed out that
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sensitivity to natural characteristics of the site is a hallmark of all of their projects. Ms.
Fisher said Plymouth was selected because of the City's reputation as an excellent place to
live and the strong need for senior housing and other facilities offering continuing care.
Ms. Fisher addressed the park dedication issue and said the applicant is aware of the
possible future ballfield as indicated in the park plan, but has looked at the legal trigger for
the City to require either dedication in land or cash fees in lieu of dedication. She said this
project would not result in a subdivision. Ms. Fisher said the City's legal counsel and the
developer have agreed that because there is no subdivision, the City cannot require
dedication of 11 acres of land nor payment in cash. Ms. Fisher said she understands staff
has chosen to recommend that the 11 acres be designated P -I on the 2030 plan, which is not
on the preliminary land use plan. She said the proposal locates the assisted living unit and
nursing care (Renaissance Gardens) in that location. If P-1 guiding remains on the 11 acres
and the City incorporates LA -4 guiding for the remainder of the site, they would propose to
rezone the entire site to PUD. She said the Renaissance Gardens would be permitted under
the P -I guiding. Ms. Fisher said this design would not preclude the development from
proceeding. Ms. Fisher said the only way that land could be transferred to school
ownership is by a voluntary sale and acquisition of the land, which is not proposed. She
said there will be discussion with the City regarding park needs that would be mutually
beneficial and that would be discussed with the PUD.
Chair Holmes introduced Julia Schnell, 50 Riverside Road, Lincolnshire IL 60069. Ms.
Schnell gave a history on Erickson Retirement Communities which offer independent
living to residents over age 62. She said with assisted living and skilled nursing care all on
one campus, residents can age in place. Ms. Schnell said the 62 and over age group is
growing dramatically and has specific housing needs as people live longer, healthier lives.
Ms. Schnell said Erickson Retirement Communities has identified 45,000 people 65 and
over within a 10 -mile radius. She said there are 19 Erickson Retirement Communities in
11 states accounting for over 20,000 residents and adding 2,000 per year. Ms. Schnell
explained that there is a 100% refundable entrance deposit and a monthly fee. Many of
their communities are based in the Baltimore area. She said the focus is on health and
wellness and the 1,500 apartments allow economical delivery of more services than a
smaller campus would provide. Ms. Schnell said these services include shuttle, chaplain,
home health department, assisted living, on-site rehab, Medicare C advantage, wellness
program and fitness center, internal walkways, pocket parks, and pools. Dining halls meet
nutritional and dietary needs, and offer socialization opportunities. Ms. Schnell said there
is a TV production studio, performing arts center, auditorium, walking trails and wood
shops. The entrance and front desk are manned around the clock. She said this is resort -
style living at an affordable cost targeting the middle class. Ms. Schnell displayed photos
indicating a high focus on landscaping and conservation. Ms. Schnell said the unit number
seems high, and explained that the Erickson Retirement Community would have a
comparable population to an LA -2 development with fewer cars per household and lower
traffic generation. She said they have a positive economic impact on the community as
jobs are created, residents participate in the community and dine and shop. They are a
taxpayer without any impact on schools, and their roads are owned and managed by
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Erickson. She said the buildings would be sprinklered and there is less impact on fire and
emergency services as all security staff are trained as first responders. She said the site is
adjacent to the Wayzata High School and 250 — 300 jobs would be generated for students.
Ms. Schnell added that service scholarships are given by Erickson. Ms. Schnell discussed
the transportation analysis and the access point off CR 101. She said Erickson Retirement
Communities is working with Speak the Word Church to take primary access off
Evergreen Road. She said construction traffic would access from State Highway 55. Ms.
Schnell said wetlands, the creek, and shoreland overlay district were all kept in mind to
have minimal impact.
Ms. Schnell introduced Geoffrey Roehll, Hitchcock Design Group, who said he is the
planner and landscaper. Mr. Roehll said the main entry is a boulevard -lined entrance to the
community building, which is the hub of each neighborhood. Mr. Roehll said one of their
standards is to maintain a maximum distance of 750 feet from the furthest unit door to the
dining room. He said the site plans are clustered around community buildings. Mr. Roehll
said they try to maintain a 100 -foot setback around properties. Mr. Roehll said 90% of the
parking spaces for this project would be underground. He said there is one parking space
for every resident and the underground parking allows more green space. He said there are
100 extra parking spaces for special events, such as Mother's Day or theater performances.
Mr. Roehll said there are a variety of trees and that a wetland from the golf course would
be restored. He said development within the shoreland would be under 25% impervious
coverage. Mr. Roehll said the building heights vary — the interfaith chapel would be one
story, the community building is 2 story, residential buildings are 3 and 4 stories. Mr.
Roehll said some resident buildings have exposed garages giving a 5 -story profile because
the lower level garage is exposed. He said these would be internal on the site. Mr. Roehll
said the central buildings, and all of the perimeter landscaping and fencing would be in the
first phase. Mr. Roehll reviewed the elevations of the buildings and said Erickson wants an
architectural product that relates to the community, recognizing there are neighbors to
respect. He said the natural evergreen buffer on the site would remain and would be
enhanced.
Commissioner Davis asked for detail on the fencing which would surround the property.
Mr. Roehll said a 6 -foot high, black decorative wrought iron style fence would be placed
along Highway 55 and on the north and west property lines. He said a black vinyl chain
link fence would be placed along the wooded side of the campus.
Commissioner Davis asked about the crossing over Elm Creek.
Mr. Roehll said there would be one elevated bridge crossing of Elm Creek to the second
neighborhood community building. He said there is an existing crossing for the golf course
which would be utilized for emergency entry and fire department access only.
Commissioner Davis asked where the parking would be for the central neighborhood.
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Mr. Roehll said the resident parking is under the building or at entry drop offs, and there
are 25 parking spaces for visitors. He said staff would be parking in a remote lot and
shuttled. He added there are shuttle buses for residents, which result in residents finding
they don't need second car. Mr. Roehll said a small maintenance building on site houses
the shuttle buses.
Commissioner Davis asked if this is a for-profit business, and whether Erickson Retirement
Communities would be paying taxes.
Ms. Schnell stated it would be run as a not for profit. She said they would work with the
City and do various programs in lieu of taxes to pay a reasonable fair share of taxes.
Commissioner Cooney asked about the emergency service access off Highway 55.
Ms. Schnell said because of potential plans for expansion, MnDOT did not want an
entrance for residential or multi -family development off Highway 55 if the golf course is
not in operation. She said Speak the Word Church is in agreement to share the new street
as an access. Ms. Schnell said Erickson does not want the construction entrance near
residents, and MnDOT approved the construction entrance on Highway 55 during the
building process.
Ms. Fisher said Erickson Retirement Communities would like to have LA -4 guiding and
will work with the City to bring a more detailed plan after the environmental process. She
said the sketch and LA -4 guiding go hand in hand. Ms. Fisher said the earlier
consideration of guiding was without the benefit of a unique use and unique attributes
which require this particular guiding. She said the economies of scale make this affordable
for middle class Americans. Ms. Fisher added they are working with staff to see if some
studio apartments may qualify as affordable units. Ms. Fisher said there would be
significantly less traffic with this use than a multi -family use or LA -2. Ms. Fisher
concluded that she has reviewed the resolution, and with the exception of deletion of park
dedication, she concurs with the recommendation.
Chair Holmes introduced Stanley Hunt, 100 Clydesdale Trail, #223, Gramercy Club, who
said several residents from Gramercy were also here with him. Mr. Hunt asked how this
proposed high density fits with Plymouth's comprehensive plan. He asked if northwest
Plymouth needs another huge retirement complex with slumping market conditions. Mr.
Hunt asked how the increased traffic on CR 101 would be handled. Mr. Hunt asked if the
development would have roadway access from Highway 55 and the high school area.
Chair Holmes introduced David Weigman, 3834 Linden Drive East, Medina MN, who said
he is representing 68 homeowners. Mr. Weigman said there is some disappointment that
the LA -2 designation which was well thought out in a highly interactive process is now
under consideration to be shifted to LA -4, which is a large density shift. Mr. Weigman
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said he has respect for Erickson Retirement Communities, but should the comprehensive
plan be changed and they do not proceed, some consideration be given to that high density
guiding. Mr. Weigman said he recognizes the need for this type of community. He said
the neighbors want to work with the developer cooperatively rather than in an adversarial
process. Mr. Weigman said he has traffic concerns. Mr. Weigman said if there is a
reduction in land by the 11 -acre parcel, there is a large concern that the building will shift
dramatically to condense it on the remaining 96 acres. Mr. Weigman said this is a
beautiful piece of property and to cut it off from the rest of the world with no park
dedication fees required and no other access seems a bit much. Mr. Weigman said he
would like to see an access to hike around the site. Mr. Weigman said the proposed large
parking lot is 50 feet from the western border, directly in line of site for 4-5 housing units,
and asked for some consideration from the developer. He asked that the mature trees on
the western edge be saved. Mr. Weigman pointed out that there might be unintentional
landscaping by their builder that encroaches on Erickson's property. Mr. Weigman asked
for more mature planting of trees along the border which would be screening 3-5 years of
construction. Mr. Weigman noted the sketch shows the proposed fence is 8 feet. He said
there would be potential light pollution from surface parking which is close to current
existing multi -family. Mr. Weigman said traffic and construction noise, proper drainage,
delivery trucks, ambulance and sirens, multiple year construction and dust and dirt should
all be considered. He said installation of perimeter landscaping quickly would provide the
best possible outcome for everyone. Mr. Weigman said it is nice to see the drawings, but a
technical 3-D fly -over showing how the development would actually look would alleviate
concerns to the neighborhood. Mr. Weigman mentioned concern about the access. He said
the neighbors would like to work with the developer and would be happy to have them as a
neighbor if reasonable consideration is given to their concerns, and provided the LA -4 can
revert back to LA -2 if they decide to back out. He said it could be a disaster for the City if
someone else comes in who is not as reputable as Erickson Retirement Communities.
Chair Holmes introduced Greg Plec, 3704 Lilac Drive. Mr. Plec said he moved in 1989
from L.A. for the quality of life in Plymouth and Medina, and said he is hoping the golf
course won't be developed. Mr. Plec said the change from LA -3 to LA -2 designation was
arrived at 18 months ago after a lot of discussion with the Mayor, City Council, and
Plymouth and Medina residents to have a very smooth transition for housing, and
recommended that 9 holes be retained if it was developed at all. Mr. Plec said the
infrastructure is not sufficient to support 1,500 — 1,600 units. He said the projected 1.5 to
2.5 members per unit could result in 3,000 people going in and out one access road. Mr.
Plec said there was a tremendous infrastructure issue for the church when they wanted to
buy. There was a lack of funding from the county or city to develop, and these additional
cars place a tremendous amount of infrastructure support that would be needed. He said
the market does not justify this development, and noted there are continuous signs at
Gramercy trying to sell units. Mr. Plec said the development seems to be ill-timed and ill -
positioned. Mr. Plec concluded that pragmatism will say that if we can have 4-6 units per
acre density and keep 9 holes of golf, we would all be better served.
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Chair Holmes introduced Robert Callan, 3920 Linden Place, Medina, who said he would
also like to see the golf course not develop as the view was a critical part of purchasing his
home. He said a fence dividing his property from the wetland would be 40 feet away and
would be quite unsightly and very restrictive because those lots were designed and built
with the concept of no restriction. Mr. Callan said road noise is a concern. Mr. Callan said
he hoped retaining 9 holes of golf would be an option.
Chair Holmes introduced Julie Espe, 3920 Linden Place, Medina. Ms. Espe said she
moved to Medina last year from New York City. She discussed the topography of the
homes and town homes which would look down into a campus of high density units. She
said her house is high on a hill and she is able to tell the score of the Wayzata high school
football game; it would take 100 -year old trees to block this out. She said she is concerned
about the road and noise, and they are not slated to put in any more trees along the homes
along the bottom. She said the topography makes noise echo throughout there. She said if
this proposal goes forward, she asked for additional, significant trees to preserve existing
home and townhomes.
Chair Holmes introduced Judy Luedke, 17910 Co. Rd. 47. Ms. Luedke said the water,
sewer, and transportation plans have not been finalized yet. She asked if we are starting
over. She said it gives the impression people can come back and ask for different density
on their property.
Chair Holmes introduced Katherine C. deBaca, 3910 Linden Place, Medina. Ms. deBaca
asked how market factors will support this high density senior housing when there is a
senior project within 4 miles in Maple Grove, an assisted living facility close in Plymouth,
and Gramercy still has units for sale. She asked if it makes sense to have a community this
size anywhere. Ms. deBaca said she is concerned about the noise factor as she looks out
on the golf course. She said there would be a main road to the community which is not far
from their back yard which has been quiet and peaceful, with deer and wild turkeys. Ms.
deBaca said the quality of life in the townhomes and their homes will change dramatically,
and asked about their property values being affected by an 8 -foot tall fence and high
density housing in eyesight. She said if she chose to sell she can't offer to the next buyer
what was offered when she bought.
Chair Holmes introduced Richard Hirt, 18624 48th Avenue N. Mr. Hirt asked how far the
extended care center is from the Cascades development. He said there would be an
extensive parking area lit all night, and said an arrangement should be made for blocking
the light. He said he concurred with earlier points made by residents, and said he would
miss the golf course.
Chair Holmes introduced Guy Willis, 3940 Linden Pl. N. Mr. Willis said he owns a twin
home in Plymouth also. He said there are valid points market -wise, as there are 20 twin
homes for sale in a 5 -mile radius which are not selling. He said is very concerned that the
developer is proposing to put a fence in a wetland and a road over the wetland.
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Chair Holmes asked how the proposed density fits with the comprehensive plan.
Senior Planner Drill responded that the LA -4 density guiding would allow up to 20 units
per acre and Erickson is proposing 17-18 units per acre. He said including the 11 acres
would reduce the number to approximately 15-16 units per acre. He said as the
comprehensive plan is being considered, the future guiding of this site is up for
consideration because of Erickson's sketch.
Commissioner Davis asked how LA -2 and LA -4 guiding would affect the number of
people.
Senior Planner Drill said with LA -2 there could be roughly 600 units, and with 2-3 people
per unit, the number could be approximately 1,200 — 1,500. He said there are more people
per unit in a home, than in an apartment. If the guiding is LA -4 with 1.3 people per unit,
there would be roughly 2,000 people.
Planning Manager Senness clarified that Highway 55 access would be for construction and
emergency access only.
Chair Holmes asked about the market demand for such a project.
Ms. Schnell said they have found there is a need for the services they provide. She said
they do recognize that the housing market is at a certain place right now and if the process
goes through, would not break ground until 2009. Ms. Schnell said 1 or 2 buildings would
open in 2010 anticipating the housing market will change by then. She said many seniors
are in alternate housing options right now that won't require a sale to get what they need.
Planning Manager Senness asked about the transition to the neighboring homes in Medina.
Ms. Schnell reiterated this is the initial sketch application working with absolute
constraints of the site with the wetlands and creek. She said their intent would be to meet
with neighbor groups to understand, negotiate and compromise all around. She said there
are many things that can be done along the single family homes on the western property
line. Ms. Schnell said the intent is to create natural buffers and not remove any plantings,
and the fence would be a 6 -foot fence. Ms. Schnell addressed the parking lots lights and
said light shields would meet local codes. She added that the events are usually not in the
evenings.
Mr. Roehll said there would be security lighting, and the seniors are also concerned about
light glare. He said there would be zero cutoff and house side shields on property lines to
reduce glare.
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Planning Manager Senness added that Plymouth has extensive lighting regulations that
address cutoff and house side shields, and requirements that lighting be turned down at
night.
Planning Manager Senness asked the distance of the parking lot from the Cascades
development on the south side of the site.
Ms. Schnell said a 100 -foot setback is typical and there is an extensive buffer.
Planning Manager Senness stated that if this proposal did not move forward and it is
guided LA -4, the City Council could reguide this property back to LA -2.
Planning Manager Senness discussed the shift in location if the property is reduced by the
11 acres. She said that Ms. Fisher indicated that would not occur, as the nursing home is
allowed in the P -I. Everything would stay as presented in the sketch.
Commissioner Davis asked if there has been any talk of someone buying the 11 acre
property and making it a park.
Planning Manager Senness explained that with no subdivision of this property the City
could not require park dedication. She said the only way is if it is purchased and the
property owner agreed to sell it. Planning Manager Senness said the school district wanted
this as part of the ball fields for the school, but didn't buy it.
Planning Manager Senness asked about addressing noise issues, particularly in the
environmental analysis.
Ms. Schnell said the noise issue would be addressed in the AUAR. She said the delivery
and food vehicles deliver only to the community buildings which would have heavily
screened loading docks. She said consideration is given to dust and noise impacts for their
own residents as well as the neighborhood. Ms. Schnell said when under construction they
do anticipate some noise, but the exterior buffer would be constructed during the initial
phase to eliminate some of that noise, as well as construction traffic access off Highway
55.
Planning Manager Senness answered Ms. Luedke's question and said that the City is not
starting over on the comprehensive plan, but when the City receives a request to look at a
potential change, the City is required to consider it.
Planning Manager Senness asked how the increased traffic and traffic control at CR 101
would be handled.
City Engineer Moberg said 3 years ago Hennepin County reconstructed CR 101 and a 20 -
year planning window was used. City Engineer Moberg said the Transportation Plan does
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not recognize CR 101 as a deficient road and this development was considered when
developing traffic projections so it will handle the development. City Engineer Moberg
said the City has requirements in compliance with state law if wetlands are impacted that
can't be avoided. He said there is a sequencing process the applicant has to go through to
replace wetlands that are filled or impacted at a 2:1 ratio.
Planning Manager Senness addressed the request for a virtual tour of the proposed
development. She said that if staff identifies the need for additional documentation, they
work with an applicant to produce it, plus the City also has in house capabilities.
Commissioner Davis asked if a traffic light would be needed at C.R. 101 and who be
responsible for that road.
City Engineer Moberg said CR 101 closest to this development is in Medina. He said there
has been preliminary discussion about that issue in terms of who would have jurisdiction
over that roadway. He said the capacity of the roadway and configuration will be an
ongoing discussion with Plymouth and Medina if this project moves forward.
Commissioner Aamoth asked when neighbors access the golf course now for hiking and
walking.
City Engineer Moberg said it is "travel at your own risk" for anyone not playing on the
course.
Commissioner Neset asked about the density and guiding, and number of units for the
Trillium Woods development.
Planning Manager Senness said that project was originally guided LA -2 and then changed
to LA -3. She said there are 300 - 400 units, with about 11 units per acre.
Commissioner Neset said this concept is a good one, and there is a demand in the future as
demographics change. He said he is concerned about the potential loss of playfields and a
golf course. Commissioner Neset said this proposal is too dense for his liking, and he is
inclined to stay with the LA -2 guiding. He said he concurs with the concerns of the
residents who border how traffic travels along the boundary of that property. He said
parking lot lights can be screened, but the number of cars traveling along that road
particularly after daylight savings time would create headlight sweep. Commissioner Neset
said if he were a property owner he would not be comfortable with the position of that road
even with the elevation change and screening. Commissioner Neset said he would not
support the proposal primarily for density and placement of roadway.
Commissioner Weir said he has the opposite view. Commissioner Weir said this is very
necessary development at this point. He said there is a big increase in seniors and there
will be times those people will need this kind of development. Commissioner Weir said
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the LA -4 guiding is fine, but it should be stipulated that if the proposal does not go forward
it should revert to LA -2.
Commissioner Aamoth asked if LA -4 guiding is recommended, whether there is no
opportunity for other applications to come forward for other guiding.
Planning Manager Senness said if LA -4 is recommended, it would be another year before
all development issues and neighborhood concerns, City Council and Met Council review
would be complete. No development approvals would be given until a plan is in place.
Commissioner Aamoth said this parcel would be on hold for a year and could not be
reviewed for any other applications.
Planning Manager Senness clarified that Erickson has a purchase agreement. She said the
City cannot conditionally reguide. If Erickson Retirement Communities does not go
forward there could be a public process to go back to LA -2 guiding. Chair Holmes
clarified that if Erickson did not move forward and the owners sold to another buyer with
an application based on LA -4, the City could be "caught sleeping at the switch".
Planning Manager Senness said the City has discretion in this matter and could recommend
reguiding back to LA -2.
Chair Holmes said the LA -2 guiding was a problem when first reviewing the land use. The
Planning Commission recommended LA -3; the City Council said LA -2. Chair Holmes
said with this application the guiding would go from LA -2 to LA -4. He said from a quality
of life standpoint in Plymouth, he has a senior father who is in a facility similar to this.
Chair Holmes said the term he kept hearing was of a community from the inside looking
out - it looks lovely. Chair Holmes said that from the outside looking in through the fences
and the gated entryway, it would look like a compound. He asked how students would get
over the fence to work other than driving Peony to Highway 55 to C.R. 101 up the new
street past guards. He said the creek is everywhere if you ever golfed there. Chair Holmes
asked why we as a community would allow a fence to go though this beautiful setting,
when there are not a lot of fences in the community. He said people use the trails which
have been developed and he sees this fence as a dividing area. Chair Holmes said he has a
tough time supporting this development as presented today.
Commissioner Neset asked if there are limits on the number of people per unit, or could a
unit hold 4 or more. He said he does like the concept of making it affordable.
Commissioner Neset said the developer indicated an average of 1.3 people per unit. He
said there would 1,500 people but what if the number is two or three times that if times got
tough. Commissioner Neset said this community would be kind of an island unto itself,
and he has a concern about density and the transition between the high school and the
neighbors in Medina.
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Ms. Schnell said 501.0 is not for profit and the age restricts to 62 and over. She clarified
that if both members were not over 62, they could not move in. She said the average age
people move in is 79-81 because of the medical component they offer. She said moving is
a big transition from their single family home. She said the majority are single, and with
the stringent age restrictions, there are never more than 2.0 people per unit.
Commissioner Neset said about the average time of stay.
Ms. Schnell said 4 years in the independent living units is typical, but they are seeing that
length of stay change every day because of the preventive health programs they offer. She
said people are living longer.
Commissioner Neset asked how many beds are in the assisted living.
Ms. Schnell said there would be 96 assisted living, and 132 skilled nursing. She said these
would be built in phases, based on need and for residents only.
Commissioner Neset asked how many residents are projected for the development.
Ms. Schnell stated there would be approximately 2,000.
Commissioner Neset said this seems imbalanced if 10% of the population need extended
care within 4 years. There would be a potential long waiting list.
Ms. Schnell said they do offer home health function in independent living to allow
residents to stay in their apartments as long as they can.
Commissioner Jaffoni said that the scope and size of this proposal hit her. She said she has
talked many times about the need for more senior housing and continuing care types of
projects. She said was supportive of another continuing care facility which was smaller.
Commissioner Jaffoni said she is struggling with this because of a fear of high density on
the part of residents. She said there could be 1500 to 2000 residents. Commissioner
Jaffoni said she does not think LA -2 or LA -4 is the major issue. She said there are
regulations in place in the city for light and noise pollution, and detailing grading, traffic
and environmental impacts. Commissioner Jaffoni said she is questioning what the
original vision the City Council had when they took the LA -3 and made it LA -2. She said
Chair Holmes articulated perfectly when he used the term "compound", because it is large
and out of character with that area. Commissioner Jaffoni said she is not saying she
wouldn't support it, but these are her feelings about this proposal.
Commissioner Cooney asked how many physicians would be present in the health service.
Ms. Schnell said the medical center would have 9 physicians with varying specialties, and
one physician would be on call 24 hours a day.
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Commissioner Davis said he is concerned about the lack of access to this property. He said
he can't think of another property that is blocked off by a fence around the whole property.
He said in Plymouth the trails go through neighborhoods and parks and this looks like a
huge parcel that is going to be blocked off. Commissioner Davis addressed taxes and
asked why are we taking a big chunk over to a non-profit that doesn't have to pay taxes and
looks like an apartment complex.
Commissioner Aamoth asked the Planning Commissioners for their opinion of what they
would want to see on this large property, i.e. would single family homes be more desirable
for the look and feel of the area.
Chair Holmes said the question before the Planning Commission is whether this guiding
and sketch makes sense and fit this property. He asked if we should recommend to the
City Council that the 2008 comprehensive plan guide this property LA -4 rather than LA -2.
Commissioner Aamoth said essentially we don't want to lose the golf course. He said as a
practical matter, if we don't decide to do this, what could we do instead.
Chair Holmes said we cannot speculate what will happen to this property in the future.
Commissioner Neset asked if the Planning Commission is still comfortable with what we
handed out initially for this property or are we willing to change it.
Jason Palmby, 1997 Topaz Drive, said he represents the seller of the golf course and stated
that 2008 will be the final season for the golf course.
MOTION by Commissioner Neset, seconded by Commissioner Davis, to forward the
comments on the pre -application sketch by Erickson Retirement Communities for a
potential continuing care retirement community to be called "Erickson Elm Creek
Campus" for property located north of Highway 55 and east of County Road 101, and
recommended keeping the site guided LA -2.
Community Development Director Juetten asked if the 11 -acres is to be guided LA- or P -I.
Commissioner Neset specified his Motion did not include the 11 acres which would remain
guided P -I. Roll Call Vote. 4 Ayes. MOTION approved. (Commissioners Weir,
Aamoth and Jaffoni voting Nay.)
B. CITY OF PLYMOUTH COMPREHENSIVE PLAN UPDATE —
TRANSPORTATION PLAN (2007050)
Chair Holmes introduced the Comprehensive Plan Update — Transportation Plan.
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City Engineer Moberg gave an overview of the October 31, 2007 staff report and the draft
Transportation Plan.
Commissioner Aamoth asked how on -road bicycle facilities are identified.
City Engineer Moberg said there are a number of different ways bike routes can be
established, depending if a roadway corridor is a shared facility by vehicles and bikes, e.g.
Minneapolis has definite bike lanes. City Engineer Moberg cited Schmidt Lake Road west
of Nathan Lane as a local example. He said this roadway was converted from a 4 -lane to a
3 -lane configuration because of driveways and intersections. The inner edge of the space
gained was striped as an edge for vehicles, leaving the remaining space for bicycles.
Commissioner Neset asked if there has been any departure in how traffic projections were
done in the past.
City Engineer Moberg said there are a number of areas forecasting less traffic volume
compared to 2000. He said this directly correlates to land use, and explained that there
were higher densities forecast for northwest Plymouth at that time, e.g. C.R 47 was
predicted to have much higher traffic volumes. City Engineer Moberg said the
methodology remains the same.
Commissioner Davis asked what the term pavement management means.
City Engineer Moberg explained that the City has jurisdiction over 75% of its 344 miles of
road. He said we own and manage them, making sure they function structurally. He said
street reconstruction is needed to maintain the integrity of existing streets to ensure they
function as they are supposed to.
Commissioner Davis asked about the section of Vicksburg Lane north of Schmidt Lake
Road.
City Engineer Moberg said this is identified in the 5 -year Capital Improvement Program.
Commissioner Jaffoni asked if other cities require a developer to put in roads and make
improvements in the same manner Plymouth does.
City Engineer Moberg said this tends to vary by community. He said Maple Grove builds
all roads, then assesses the cost back to the developer. City Engineer Moberg said who
pays for the roads is basically the same.
Commissioner Jaffoni asked if there are 3 or 4 Park and Rides.
City Engineer Moberg clarified that there are three facilities in the city and the
4th
facility is
located just south of the city boundary in Minnetonka.
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Commissioner Jaffoni asked if a 4th Park and Ride is planned for the northwest corridor.
Planning Manager Senness said this has not been identified and would depend on where
development occurs.
City Engineer Moberg added that the plan states that the City will investigate a potential
site near Peony Lane and Schmidt Lake Road.
Commissioner Jaffoni asked if the City promotes the idea of light rail and asked the City's
position on that.
Planning Manager Senness said none of the regional light rail corridors go through
Plymouth and even those corridors are a long term possibility, given current transportation
funding levels.
Community Development Director Juetten noted that Page 25-26 mentions keeping up to
date on the light rail transit discussion.
Commissioner Jaffoni said there has been recent publicity about a high incidence of
accidents at Co. Rd. 9 and I-494. She asked what improvements are slated for the
interchange at that location and will they address the safety improvements needed.
City Engineer Moberg said one basic premise of the plan is that I-494 is going to be
upgraded from 394 north to Maple Grove around 2015. He said the plan also assumes that
Hwy. 55 from I-494 to the west Plymouth boundary would be upgraded. City Engineer
Moberg clarified that Mn/DOT does not have funds committed yet, and clearly there are
things that need to be addressed at that interchange when I-494 is upgraded.
Commissioner Jaffoni noted that dedicated Dial -A -Ride funds are being moved to regular
bus service, and asked if ridership statistics support the decision to reduce it by that much.
City Engineer Moberg said analysis had gone into that recommendation. He said the
transit plan was presented to the PACT and they supported it. He said the best way to
utilize the resources we have is to change the approach on Dial -A -Ride and apply those to
the commuter bus program.
Commissioner Jaffoni said the Dial -A -Ride is often used by seniors because of the
convenience of service to their door. She said in the future there might be a growing need
for the Dial -A -Ride, and the City may have to re-evaluate that need.
City Engineer Moberg said transit is always in a state of flux and the City is trying to be as
responsive as possible.
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November 7, 2007
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Commissioner Aamoth asked about Page 14 and the 50% transit ridership growth target for
2030. He asked if our natural suburban development will get us to those levels.
City Engineer Moberg clarified that these are projections, and that this document needs to
be reviewed by the Metropolitan Council. He said the City is expected to support any
regional goal.
Commissioner Aamoth asked if general fund money is used for road projects.
City Engineer Moberg said the City of Plymouth is eligible for municipal state aid which
can be used on 20% of our roadway system. He said the current City policy for pavement
management of local streets is to assess homeowners 40% of these improvement costs. He
said the City pays the remaining 60% and is falling behind in keeping up. City Engineer
Moberg said the City has increased the levy in current years to get more of those
improvements done. He added that the plan has an unfinished implementation piece which
will include a financial analysis of how to get where we want to get over this planning
period.
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Davis, to forward the
Transportation Plan to the City Council along with all the Commission's comments. Vote.
7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
C. CITY OF PLYMOUTH COMPREHENSIVE PLAN UPDATE — DRAFT
SURFACE WATER MANAGEMENT PLAN (2007050)
Chair Holmes introduced the request by the City of Plymouth for a Comprehensive Plan
Update — Surface Water Management Plan.
Water Resources Manager Asche gave an overview of the October 29, 2007 staff report.
Commissioner Jaffoni asked if this plan reflects a continuation of the way surface water
has been managed in the past ten years. She said she tried to find where we might be doing
things differently in the future because of development in northwest Plymouth, particularly
the Trillium Woods project. She asked how potential erosion impacts would be controlled
for Pomerleau and Camelot lakes.
Water Resources Manager Asche said specific policy and developer -related requirements
would be included in Appendix 5E, Goals and Policies, in the Surface Water Management
Plan. An example of a policy would be when more than one-half acre of soil is disturbed,
specific steps to protect surface water need to be taken. Water Resources Manager Asche
said surface water treatment is different now than in the past. In the past surface water was
deposited directly into a wetland. Now surface water is pre-treated by ponding, rain
gardens or other measures. Goals and policies are being developed to protect our
resources.
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Commissioner Jaffoni asked when the appendices would be added to the executive
summary and general overview.
Water Resources Manager Asche advised that the ten goals and policies affect all
development and City projects, and how we do business on a day-to-day basis. The text is
the general overview and foundation for other requirements that come forward.
Commissioner Jaffoni referenced impaired water bodies — Medicine, Pike and Parkers
Lakes, and asked specifically what is being done to aggressively attack the mercury issue.
Water Resources Manager Asche said the impaired water list is from the DNR and is
updated on a two-year cycle. He said the mercury impairment is different from others such
as nutrients, dissolved oxygen, or fish IBI (index of biological integrity) in that it doesn't
have a watershed boundary, so the State will handle this impairment. The City of
Plymouth will be involved in other water impairments.
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Davis, to forward the
Surface Water Management Plan to the City Council along with all the Commission's
comments. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
D. CITY OF PLYMOUTH COMPREHENSIVE PLAN UPDATE — SANITARY
SEWER PLAN (2007050)
Chair Holmes introduced the Comprehensive Plan Update — Sanitary Sewer Plan.
Senior Planner Drill indicated that the Planning Commissioners received a copy of the
draft plan at their places. He then provided an overview of the key elements of the plan.
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Davis, to forward the
Sanitary Sewer Plan to the City Council. Roll Call Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
E. CITY OF PLYMOUTH COMPREHENSIVE PLAN UPDATE — WATER
SUPPLY PLAN (2007050)
Chair Holmes introduced the Comprehensive Plan Update — Water Supply Plan.
Senior Planner Drill gave an overview of the November 1, 2007 staff report.
Chair Holmes asked for an explanation of the water emergency plan.
Public Works Director Cote said the water emergency plan is required by the DNR in order
to obtain any permits to install new wells. The plan is based on the city's water usage, and
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overall per capita use decreasing as a result of the daytime sprinkling ban and other specific
elements of conservation.
Commissioner Jaffoni noted the per capita demand has decreased, and asked when the
water restrictions were put into effect.
Public Works Director Cote responded that the restrictions were put in place in 2002 or
2003.
Commissioner Jaffoni asked what usage is projected for 2030. She said if the per capita
demand is going down, how do we justify using population to extrapolate average daily
use.
Public Works Director Cote said the entire plan is conservative and designed to give the
worse case scenario. He stated if actual circumstances dictate a facility is not needed, the
City would not build it. However, it is important to be aware that under certain
circumstances, a particular facility may be required.
MOTION by Commissioner Weir, seconded by Commissioner Cooney, to forward the
Water Supply Plan to the City Council along with all the Commission's comments. Vote.
7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
F. CITY OF PLYMOUTH COMPREHENSIVE PLAN UPDATE — PARKS,
TRAILS, OPEN SPACE AND RECREATION PLAN (2007050)
Chair Holmes introduced the Comprehensive Plan Update — Parks, Trails, Open Space and
Recreation Plan.
Superintendent of Recreation Evans gave an overview of the November 1, 2007 staff
report. She said an e-mail from Mark Kraemer, 4715 Yuma Lane N., has been added as
part of the public record.
Commissioner Neset asked what transpired to eliminate the living farm concept.
Superintendent of Recreation Evans said that after discussions at both the staff and City
Council level that the concept was not necessarily a good fit. The realignment of Peony
Lane would cut through that property, making it less valuable to the greenway. In addition,
the City just purchased a 70 -acre parcel that is very close to the living farm site and abuts
the greenway. This new parcel will be used as a trail head for the greenway.
Commissioner Neset said the golf course language has been pared down, but the intent still
is in keeping with what we had.
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November 7, 2007
Page 20
Superintendent of Recreation Evans clarified that there were approximately 8 pages of golf
course information that provided extensive information, such as types, locations, etc. The
Parks Commission agreed to include only the language from the 2000 Comprehensive Plan
that they identified as being most important. That paragraph (Appendix 7A, page 1) has
been carried forwarded into the 2030 plan.
Park and Recreation Director Blank added that the language, including the 3 -bullet points
is a word for word transfer from the 2000 plan. The key issues were as follows: 1) the City
would not take actions to harm the private golf organizations, 2) the City supports having
an 18 hole golf course and 3) the City would give priority to the preservation of Hollydale
Golf Course.
Commissioner Aamoth asked if the City is budgeting funds if a golf course became
available for purchase in the future.
Park and Recreation Director Blank said there are no budgeting dollars earmarked nor is
there intention by the City to pursue acquisition of a golf course.
Commissioner Jaffoni referenced the Gonyea Development on Dunkirk Lane and the
residents' concern for a trail on the north side of that project. She asked if this plan reflects
inclusion of that trail.
Park and Recreation Director Blank said that trail extension is in the plan.
Commissioner Jaffoni asked if the City Center sidewalk and trail system is incorporated in
this plan.
Park and Recreation Director Blank said the sidewalk plan was adopted many years ago
and all roads in City Center are designated to have a sidewalk on them. He said the City is
trying to take positive steps to get sidewalks completed on the Rockford Road and
Vicksburg.
Community Development Director Juetten added that the internal crossings and pedestrian
spine are already in the City Center portion of the Land Use Plan.
Chair Holmes introduced Maureen Modrack, 4950 Comstock Lane N. Ms. Modrack said
the 2000 Comprehensive Plan was to last to 2020. The current process should last to 2030.
Ms. Modrack stated this draft pared down the section on golf courses from 7 pages to 4
bullets and she wants to see these sections included in the new Comprehensive Plan. Ms.
Modrack said the survey in 2000 is still relevant today as to how citizens feel about an 18 -
hole golf course. The new draft does not reflect this and de-emphasizes the desires of 79%
of the residents surveyed.
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November 7, 2007
Page 21
Chair Holmes introduced Robert Burk, 4962 Comstock Lane N. Mr. Burk said he
represents the Courts of Nanterre neighborhood. Mr. Burk said he supports transferring the
language of the 2000 Comprehensive Plan with regard to the Hollydale Golf Course. He
said if Hollydale were to be rezoned residential, new park land would be necessary. He said
he is very concerned about that statement because it is not consistent with language in the
new Comprehensive Plan. Mr. Burk concurred with Ms. Modrack regarding the missing
language, and said he finds it strange that golf courses were singled out to be pared down
after a survey showed 79% of citizens who participated wanted to maintain Hollydale. He
reiterated that Plymouth is the only 18 -hole golf course the City of Plymouth has. Mr. Burk
said if it were eliminated, Plymouth would be the only city of this size north of the Mason
Dixon line that does not have an 18 -hole golf course. Mr. Burk referenced a case in Inver
Grove Heights where a developer wanted to purchase a golf course, then sued the City
because they had a right to buy that property and the City needed to rezone it residential.
The case went to the Supreme Court and the court upheld that the City had a right to keep
the designation of public open space. Mr. Burk said the discussion on the Elm Creek golf
course indicates the City had already locked itself into rezoning that golf course. Mr. Burk
said, had you not done that and had maintained it as golf course, you would be in better
shape than you now are. Mr. Burk concluded that he would like to see the language
proposed for the new Comprehensive Plan for Hollydale but would like to see the
background language as to why golf courses are important to the Comprehensive Plan.
Chair Holmes introduced Robert Knudsen, 4920 Weston Lane N., representing residents of
Nanterre. Mr. Knudsen said the earlier discussion regarding Elm Creek golf course and the
residents around it, shows that "the horse is out of the barn", as it has already been rezoned.
He said that the golf course now has the right to sell, leaving residents of Plymouth with
only one golf course left. Mr. Knudsen said the City may have to consider acquiring that
golf course, and if we are not careful, we lose our options. Mr. Knudsen said if we are
putting substance into what we say about green space, trails and walking, then we have to
stand up as a community and preserve that. Mr. Knudsen said this is easy to say but harder
to put teeth into it. We all recognize quality of life and that is why we live in Minnesota.
Mr. Knudsen said Hampton Hills is gone, Elm Creek will disappear, and 9 -hole and Par 3
golf are not the sport (of golf) at all. Mr. Knudsen said paring down the language may be
appropriate because we have pared down the number of courses. Mr. Knudsen stressed we
need to protect the last golf course available in the city and keep it available to all
residents. He said golf is the second most popular sport next to walking. He concluded that
we cannot build a new course and we need to protect what we have.
Commissioner Davis reviewed the wording compared to the Comprehensive Plan wording
in 2000. He said as he reads this he sees a commitment to maintaining golf courses the best
we can.
Ms. Modrack said they want the same language which precedes the section on parks and
trails. She reiterated that the City paid for a survey which gives all the reasons why we
want that golf course which is just as important as bike paths, trails, etc.
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Page 22
Mr. Burk said a court could look at a plan which has just 4 bullet points now, and see that
there has been a change with the attitude of the City with regard to golf courses. He said
that could be a dangerous opening for anyone who wanted to develop Hollydale.
Chair Holmes recommended that the City be black and white regarding the issue of
purchasing a golf course if one became available to purchase. He said in a time of tax
referendum, people do not want taxes to go up. Chair Holmes added that golf is not a
break-even business in Minnesota.
Commissioner Neset commented that it is very important to have an 18 -hole golf course
and he said he thinks the language directly states that. He said language from the previous
plan may need to be back in and asked for clarification on that issue.
Commissioner Aamoth concurred with Commissioner Neset. He asked about the
purchasing and operating a golf course" language. Commissioner Aamoth recommended
that the City budget for this if "purchase" is in the language, so there wouldn't be tax
resistance.
Commissioner Davis questioned where the City would put $30M that we don't plan on
spending. He said the purchase of a golf course is a significant investment that would
change the dynamics of that property, and said he does not think we should recommend
budgeting for, "if something happens in the future".
Commissioner Neset said if any opportunity came along it would be up to the citizens of
Plymouth to pay more taxes and have a municipal golf course. He said this could be
addressed at that time, but we do need to establish this is important to us. Commissioner
Neset recommended leaving the language in if people would be more comfortable.
Commissioner Jaffoni said she is not a golfer, but did agree with Mr. Burk that from a
lawyer's standpoint, the reduction of the 8 pages can be a signal of a diminished interest.
She said the City Council should consider putting some or all of that language back, and it
would show we are committed to having an 18 -hole golf course in the City of Plymouth.
MOTION by Commissioner Jaffoni, seconded by Commissioner Neset, to forward the
Parks, Trails, Open Space and Recreation Plan to the City Council, with all the
Commission's comments and with the recommendation to consider adding language on
golf courses and restoring part or all of that back into the final document.
Commissioner Davis said at the October 17, 2007 Planning Commission Meeting there
was discussion on "removing fluff' from the Comprehensive Plan, and unless we can add
something that changes what we are saying, he would not support the Motion. He said
adding these 8-9 pages restates and gives the background story; Commissioner Davis said
he is not sure the Comprehensive Plan is the place for a background story.
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November 7, 2007
Page 23
Commissioner Aamoth said he would support restoring language, but does not support the
phrase, "...purchasing and operating a golf course".
Commissioner Weir commented that with the current wording, we have just said we are
going to purchase a golf course.
Roll Call Vote. 5 Ayes. MOTION approved. Commissioners Davis and Aamoth voting
Nay.
8. ADJOURNMENT
MOTION by Chair Holmes, without objection, to adjourn the meeting at 11:21 p.m.