HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 02-16-2011Approved Minutes
City of Plymouth
Planning Commission Meeting
February 16, 2011
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chair James Davis, Commissioners Dick Kobussen, Gordon Petrash,
Scott Nelson, Bryan Oakley and Marc Anderson
MEMBERS ABSENT: Commissioner Nathan Robinson
STAFF PRESENT: Planning Manager Barbara Senness, Senior Planner Marie Darling, City
Engineer Bob Moberg and Office Support Specialist Laurie Lokken
1. CALL TO ORDER - 7:00 P.M.
2. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
3. PUBLIC FORUM
4. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION by Commissioner Petrash, seconded by Commissioner Kobussen, to approve the
February 16, 2011 Planning Commission Agenda. Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved.
5. CONSENT AGENDA
A. APPROVAL OF THE FEBRUARY 2, 2011 PLANNING COMMISSION
MEETING MINUTES
Commissioner Oakley stated that he was not a Planning Commissioner at the January 19, 2011
Planning Commission meeting and that he had abstained from voting on approval of the minutes.
MOTION by Commissioner Petrash, seconded by Commissioner Kobussen, to approve the
February 2, 2011 Planning Commission Meeting Minutes as amended. Vote. 6 Ayes.
MOTION approved.
6. PUBLIC HEARINGS
A. QUEST DEVELOPMENT, INC. (2010086)
Chair Davis introduced the tabled request from the February 2, 2011 Planning Commission
meeting by Quest Development, Inc. for a comprehensive plan amendment to amend the land use
guide plan from LA -4 to LA -5, rezoning from RMF -4 to PUD and a PUD general plan for a 157 -
unit apartment building for property located at 9805 and 9855 State Highway 55.
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Senior Planner Darling gave an overview of the staff report. Senior Planner Darling noted that
two letters had been received and added to the public record.
Commissioner Petrash asked what the benefits are for this alternative versus the original design.
Senior Planner Darling responded that at the previous meeting, there were concerns raised about
whether or not pedestrians crossing the street would be visible to traffic coming from the west.
She said that the applicant has proposed to stop that traffic using a stop sign and also to install
advisory pedestrian crossing signs located 100 to 150 feet back in order to improve
consciousness of that particular trail crossing. She said that the drawbacks to this particular
layout would be that the applicant would lose two parking spaces; however, that is fairly
negligible considering the amount of parking that they have on that site.
Commissioner Nelson asked who would be responsible for installing the stop signs. Senior
Planner Darling replied that a warrant study would not have to be completed for a private drive
coming out onto a public street. Planning Manager Senness added that there is already a stop
sign in place for north bound traffic.
Commissioner Anderson stated that the stop sign proposed on east bound traffic on Nathan Lane
would require a warrant study and asked that if it did not meet the warrants, how would it affect
the crosswalk location and the visibility of pedestrians on that crosswalk. City Engineer Moberg
responded that the location of the proposed crosswalk would be such that it would be visible for
both east bound and north bound traffic. He said that it is a more conventional proposal from
what the applicant had previously proposed.
Commissioner Anderson asked if placing a pedestrian crossing sign on Nathan Lane before the
intersection would be allowed without a warrant. Senior Planner Darling replied that such a sign
would be advisory and that it would not require a warrant study.
Commissioner Anderson stated that he had reviewed the packet thoroughly and that he had
looked at various buildings to get an understanding of what is being proposed. He said that he
thought what is proposed here is quite satisfactory. He said he felt that by requesting some
additional information, we have probably ended up with a better product. He said that he was
glad the applicant stepped up and did some additional studies as it gave us an opportunity to
understand exactly what they are proposing.
Commissioner Petrash stated that this building is still under design. He asked what would
happen if during the course of design, the proposed materials, etc. are required to be changed due
to reasons we might not yet have. Senior Planner Darling responded that if an issue is found
with one of the materials that is proposed, they would still have to have the same general
appearance and durability. Planning Manager Senness added that if there was a substantial
difference, that would have to come back for further review.
Chair Davis introduced Judy Luedke, 17910 County Road 47. Ms. Luedke said that both of
these hearings show a lack of respect for all the work that went into the effort and time spent on
the comprehensive plan. She said that if they valued the work spent on the comprehensive plan,
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they wouldn't be here asking for a change. She said that if their changes are allowed, then
everyone's changes that come along after them should be allowed. She said that citizens are
expected to follow rules and why have rules if they aren't enforced. She said that the
comprehensive plan is a guide; however, these areas were covered by city employees and
citizens during the long time the planning process was drawn out. She asked if it is remembered
how density was fought at 3 units per acre. She said that it was expected that the Planning
Commission and City Council would follow the comprehensive plan better. She said that if
everything gets an amendment, the comprehensive plan soon doesn't mean anything to anyone
anymore.
MOTION (continued from February 2, 2011 Planning Commission Meeting) by Commissioner
Petrash, seconded by Commissioner Nelson, to approve the request by Quest Development for a
comprehensive plan amendment from LA -4 to LA -5, a rezoning from RMF -4 to PUD and a PUD
general plan for a 157 -unit apartment building located at 9805 and 9855 State Highway 55.
AMENDMENT TO ORIGINAL MOTION by Commissioner Nelson, seconded by
Commissioner Anderson, to add that the north entrance be modified to align the center line with
the frontage road as close as possible without encroaching on the 10 -foot setback. Vote. 6 Ayes.
MOTION approved.
AMENDMENT TO ORIGINAL MOTION by Commissioner Oakley, seconded by
Commissioner Anderson, to revise Item 4.a.) in the resolution approving the PUD general plan to
provide 1.73 parking spaces per unit. Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved.
Roll Call Vote On Motion as twice amended. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved unanimously.
B. GONYEA COMPANY (2010096)
Chair Davis introduced the request by Gonyea Company for a comprehensive plan amendment
to the sanitary sewer plan to revise sanitary sewer districts and the development staging plan for
properties located at the northeast and southeast corner of County Road 47 and Dunkirk Lane
North and properties east of Dunkirk Lane North.
Senior Planner Doty gave an overview of the staff report.
Commissioner Kobussen asked why the comprehensive plan amendment development date is
January 1, 2012. Planning Manager Senness said that it is basically to stage out development in
a progressive fashion.
Senior Planner Doty responded to Commissioner Kobussen's inquiry about the direction of
sewer flow throughout the site.
Commissioner Oakley asked if there would be any lift stations required in order to serve the
northeast portion of the EC -6 site. Senior Planner Doty replied that no lift stations are
anticipated and that everything has been proposed to be served through gravity.
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Commissioner Nelson asked if something might have been missed when the plan was put into
place for this anticipated sewer system based on what had been developed in the previous
comprehensive plan update. City Engineer Moberg responded that during the last
comprehensive plan process, a different consultant had been selected to do the sewer and water
portion of the plan than was used previously to have a fresh set of eyes. He said that this
consultant had acknowledged that the EC -19 area could be served in several different ways and
they put together for it to go to the west. Commissioner Nelson stated that given the fact there
were several options, it would have been anticipated that the sewer system would possibly be
amended/changed based on development. City Engineer Moberg affirmed that was correct.
Commissioner Nelson asked if this type of adjustment had been made in any other parts of the
city before. City Engineer Moberg replied that one area would be the Elm Creek Highlands
development. He said that the Conor Meadows neighborhood to the south and the subdivision
lying to the east did have a lift station installed when the properties were developed. He said the
Conor Meadows development had taken place prior to the Elm Creek Interceptor being in place.
He said that once the interceptor was installed, it then presented an opportunity to extend gravity
sanitary sewer to the Conor Meadows neighborhood and eliminate the lift station. Planning
Manager Senness added that an infrastructure study of the northwest area was put together a
couple of years ago. She said it identified a very small area where sewer, water and roads were
all aligned. She said that in order for development to occur in a logical fashion, it was
recognized that some things would have to occur differently than the way they were established
in the plan.
Senior Planner Doty and Planning Manager Senness confirmed for Chair Davis that because of
grade, sewer service to the northwest corner of the O'Donnell property needs to go north.
Commissioner Oakley asked for confirmation that there is not a proposal to oversize pipes so
that they can lay flatter. City Engineer Moberg replied that the gravity sewer planned for the
Steeple Hill development is an 8 -inch line and would connect to an 8 -inch line in Maple Grove.
He said with that constraint on the downstream side, the city would not support any proposals for
a larger pipe upstream because of the maintenance issues that would occur.
Commissioner Anderson asked where watermains are currently located. City Engineer Moberg
responded that there is a 16 -inch trunk watermain in Vicksburg Lane. He said that with the
Steeple Hill development proposal, that applicant would be putting in a 16 -inch trunk line the
full length of their property along County Road 47. He said that there is also watermain
throughout the Spring Meadows development.
Commissioner Anderson stated that for any property to develop, it needs both water and sewer.
He said that this site is very close to water on the east but that the Elm Creek Interceptor is much
further to the west. He said that he does not see any other way for orderly development to occur
from east to west other than from what is presented.
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Chair Davis stated that staying with the original plan, the only way to develop that property
would be to build the sewer line all the way along Dunkirk Lane. Senior Planner Doty affirmed
that from the site area, that was correct.
Commissioner Kobussen asked if staff could respond to the statement in the letter from the
owner at 5915 Dunkirk Lane North that he would not be able to connect to city sewer. Senior
Planner Doty responded that there are options for sewer to be provided to his property. Planning
Manager Senness added that it would not be worthwhile for one five -acre parcel to develop at a
time. She said that parcels along the west side of Dunkirk Lane would need to combine for
development to occur.
Chair Davis asked if the properties west of Dunkirk Lane have a downside with this proposed
change. Senior Planner Doty replied that it would depend on if they would want to see
development or not. He said that approval of this amendment would bring development closer to
them in terms of water and road improvements. He said that the downside is if you did not want
to see development.
Chair Davis introduced the applicant, Dave Gonyea, Gonyea Company. Mr. Gonyea said that
the biggest issue for the comprehensive plan is having sewer, water and streets available. He
said that there is a lot of separation between that infrastructure, which is going to make
development difficult to do. He said that this should benefit everyone.
Chair Davis continued the public hearing from the February 2, 2011 Planning Commission
Meeting.
Chair Davis introduced, Mike and Tami Janousek, 5630 Dunkirk Lane North. Mr. Janousek said
that they had been a part of the comprehensive plan discussions. He said that they are a voice for
development. He said that they had spoken to the consultant that was working on the sewer at
that time and with city staff. He said that he very much appreciated how the staff, Planning
Commission and City Council listened to the people and came up with a reasonable plan.
Having said that, he felt that there was a sewer oversight related to this then. He said that
because sewer could go either way, it wasn't a significant oversight that couldn't be fixed as
development occurred. He said that they see this as a win/win opportunity. He said that
continuing development along Vicksburg Lane and not developing their property and the
property south of them until there is a major sewer trunk coming in to Dunkirk Lane would put
them in a situation where they would be surrounded by development without the opportunity to
develop. He said that the west side of Dunkirk Lane includes five -acre lots or smaller and they
wanted to keep their land rural. He said that this proposal would allow the continuation of
systematic and thoughtful development.
Ms. Janousek said that it also allows the properties on the west side of Dunkirk to not be so
pressured to be developed by those on the east side who want to be developed. She said that
poses a problem for both the depth that the sewer would have to be put at to get through that
area, as well as, how many landowners would have to come together for the sewer to come
through. She said that those two issues pose a really big problem for them to get development to
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their properties. She said the fact that the sewer would be coming through a designated rural
density is an issue. She said that at the time the comprehensive plan was updated, they had
requested that their properties have higher density. She said that their properties back up to the
development that is coming through already. She said that they can't stay rural. She said that
they would like the opportunity to develop at some point and they feel that this is their only
window of opportunity to allow for development to occur.
Chair Davis introduced Paul Hetchler, 5855 Dunkirk Lane North. Mr. Hetchler said that they
have concerns. He said that he was assured by staff that development of this site was not solid
yet and that further issues are yet to be settled. He said that he is not speaking against this in any
way. He said that this site and much of Dunkirk Lane is very hilly property. He said that he has
been actively farming some of these parcels for a number of years and that the Farm Service
Administration has identified a number of the parcels as being so steep that they are highly
erodible land and that there were certain things that he could not do as a farmer. He said that one
of those steep slopes is located on Dunkirk Lane as it goes south from County Road 47. He said
that a previous engineering study completed within the past 20 years for the city showed that the
slope there was an 11 percent grade at that time. He said that grade is more than what would be
appropriate for such a road. He said that staff defined the road as being a minor collector
roadway. He said that the development sketch showed up to 160 housing units and all of that
traffic would be entering that subdivision from Dunkirk Lane. He said that the traffic generated
there would have to go up an 11 percent grade, which is not hard to do except when it is snowy
or icy. He said that everyone living along there has come to owning a four-wheel drive vehicle
because of that one particular grade. He said that adding additional traffic in that area would be
a problem. He said that the engineering study showed that the road should be 8 percent grade,
which left an 11 -foot drop at the end of his driveway. He said that this would make his driveway
dangerous. He said that the engineering study also suggested that the solution was to change the
alignment of Dunkirk Lane with County Road 47 so that they could adjust the grade better. He
said that this may need to be addressed as part of this entire plan. He said that the sewer is
gravity flow and therefore, the elevations are important. He said that the preliminary plan
suggested that the northwest corner of the site would require 19 feet vertical fill to make the
sewer work from the school site property. He said where that fill would come from is a concern.
He said his concern is that the plan for this sewer would be cost -shared by the many properties
that would be feeding into that trunk line. He said that by serving these properties with a
different sewer would double the price for the property owners on the west side of Dunkirk Lane.
Chair Davis introduced Lee Olson, 5535 Dunkirk Lane North. Mr. Olson asked why the sanitary
sewer has to go to the east as it looks like everything could be served to the west. He said that
the cost share interests him. He said that the sewer has to be built one way or the other. He said
that more people would be served by the current plan and asked what the driving force was to
change.
Ms. Luedke said that when a sewer goes in, people who are price conscious put the water pipe in
at the same time. She said that the sewer line goes over to County Road 101. She said that the
sewer line was put in and has been ready to be used on her property since 2003. She said that
she can't hook up to it and the city won't bring water to her. She said that there isn't a well that
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she could use if she paid for the pipe to get it there. She said it seems that it is very important to
get this property done when a lot of people think it is important that other properties get done.
She said that road improvements are being looked at again and yet they are the last scheduled for
development. She said they are the last to be developed and the first to get a road. She said that
funds have been taken away. She said that she thinks it would be cheaper to run a water pipe
than a sewer pipe. She said that it is shorter to route to Maple Grove and all it does is save this
builder money. She said it is a ridiculous statement to make that we are a progressive city and
we can't even provide them with water. She said that there isn't even a fire hydrant location near
her. She said that she has spoken for development for years but that she is against a developer
who wants to save money to get a place done and doesn't care about the rest of them. She said
that the city should care about everybody equally. She said that the city doesn't provide water
even though the county has provided sewer. She said that for every project that goes in there is
less water coming. She said that the city has put in a lot of wells in the last years but they go in
where development is wanted. She said that everybody has rights, not just some people.
Chair Davis introduced Carter Charlson, 5515 Dunkirk Lane North. Mr. Charlson asked if the
cost of the sewer going up along Dunkirk Lane would be shared by the property owners that own
five -acre lots. He said that the hill on Dunkirk Lane is very steep. He said that if it snows
overnight, the county is good about getting that road cleared by morning. He said that if it snows
during the day and if it doesn't get cleared for the afternoon commute, it gets polished and
smooth and you can't get up the hill. He said that he cannot imagine 150 more people using this
road and that the only logical way would be to relocate the intersection of Dunkirk Lane and
County Road 47. He said if that would be the only entrance to get into the development, there is
going to be a big problem. He said that if the hill were to be cut down, those property owners
would never be able to get up their driveways because their driveways are short. He said that it
would ruin their entrances.
Chair Davis introduced Bob Schoeneberger, 16845 County Road 47. Mr. Schoeneberger said
that he shares the same concern about having 160 some people paying for the sewer line versus
only eight to 12 that would be assessed for the sewer line. He said that they are not anti -
development. He said that they are professional and business people who understand that
progress needs to occur. He said that all they are asking is that it be done in a fair way. He said
that it would be very convenient for the developer but it's a tremendous burden for those west of
Dunkirk Lane. He said that another option is to not develop their property. He said it makes it
very difficult for them to sell their property if there is an uncertainty of when sewer and water
would be coming there. He said that he would be opposed to this process unless there is a fair
way of figuring out how to pay for all of this development. He said that all of the changes to
Dunkirk Lane will be coming at some point. He said that if it is changed to a city road, all of the
improvements would come as assessments. He asked that the commission not forget about them
as they make this decision.
Chair Davis introduced Dean Amsbaugh, 16910 County Road 47. Mr. Amsbaugh said that he
had an option on his property that ran five years and was canceled on January 1St. He said that it
was canceled because there was no development in sight. He said that the reason there wasn't
any development in sight was because the sewer line has been cut off at Dunkirk Lane. He said
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that his sewer cannot go up hill and go to the east. He said that it has to go to the west, where it
has always been planned. He said that some day his property might be sold as a hobby farm,
which isn't worth a whole lot compared to development property. He said that the number of
properties to the west that would share that cost in the future is far less than laid out originally.
He said that it is obvious that the reason for the new sewer plan is to save that developer money.
Chair Davis introduced John Pierro, 5600 Dunkirk Lane North. Mr. Pierro said that some people
are talking about what's fair and what's not fair and there are no guarantees when you buy
property anywhere, whether it is going to be developable or not. He that development generally
grows from the center of a large city outward. He said that this seems to be a logical progression
going east to west. He said that if he were to have development on two or three sides, it would
lessen the appeal of his property. He said that he is in favor of this proposal.
Ms. Janousek said that an issue with some of these properties is density. She said that it is a low,
rural density and that is an issue for some developers. She said that another issue is that you
need to combine several properties together in order to develop them because they are small
parcels of property. She said that the problem is getting enough people together who want
development on the west side. She said that she would hate to have their side blocked from
development because there can't be enough of the smaller property owners who will come
together and decide on a course of action. She said that this allows those property owners who
don't want development and who asked to be left at rural density in the comprehensive plan. She
said that they petitioned for development density. She said that they are not asking for
something that they can't have.
Mr. Olson said that he doesn't think anyone wants to get into an east versus west thing here. He
said that this plan works for both sides and they can develop well ahead of anybody in the west.
He said that it gets the sewer where it needs to be and where the original plan had it. He said that
it doesn't prevent this project at all.
Chair Davis closed the public hearing.
City Engineer Moberg said that in the comprehensive plan, Dunkirk Lane is identified as a minor
collector roadway. He said that as a minor collector, that roadway is planned to connect from
County Road 47 to Schmidt Lake Road. He said that it would serve as a parallel route to
Vicksburg Lane. He said that with the designation as a minor collector roadway, the maximum
allowable grade that would be permitted with an improved roadway would be a six percent. He
said that if the properties currently have access to Dunkirk Lane, the city would have to make
sure that those properties would continue to have access to Dunkirk Lane or short of that, that
there would be access to some public roadway.
City Engineer Moberg said that it is important to recognize that there have been no development
proposals that have been brought forward at this point for any kind of traffic analysis.
City Engineer Moberg said that in the current comprehensive plan, the sewer line that is
identified that runs along County Road 47 is proposed as a 12 -inch line. He said that the city has
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not done a full -depth analysis to see if it could be reduced in size. He said that a public sanitary
sewer could not be smaller than an 8 -inch line. He said that the construction costs for increasing
pipe size is quite minor when compared to the cost of the excavation.
City Engineer Moberg said that it is the intent of the comprehensive plan to show in a general
nature how areas could be served with sanitary sewer. He said that the Elm Creek Interceptor
was located where it is because that sewer was put in the lowest area, which was a more cost
effective installation. He said that when individual properties are looked at to see where they fit
in with the comprehensive plan, there can be any number of opportunities for different
alignments that could be utilized that may be more cost effective than others.
City Engineer Moberg said it has not been the practice of the city to get in the business of
extending sanitary sewer and watermain. He said the city practice has been to allow the
development community to do that and by doing so, the costs are borne by development rather
than by taxpayers as a whole. He said that in some cases, sanitary sewer may be put in deeper or
a larger pipe may be used because we recognize that it is going to serve a larger area than just the
individual development that is being considered. He said that the city may participate in some
costs along those lines. He said that another option would be if the residents of the neighborhood
would want to petition the city to have sewer and water run in.
Commissioner Petrash asked that if the elevation would be changed along Dunkirk Lane, who
would bear the responsibility for those modifications. City Engineer Moberg responded that in a
situation like that, whatever entity would have caused the situation to occur would be the one
that would be responsible for bearing the cost. He said that if Dunkirk Lane becomes a city
project, that becomes part of a city project cost. He said that if Dunkirk Lane were to be
included as part of a development proposal, any of the secondary costs associated with that
would be borne by the party responsible for the project.
Commissioner Oakley asked what the city standards are for driveway slopes. City Engineer
Moberg replied that there is not a hard and fast rule about driveway slopes. He said that the city
tries to keep the grade on a driveway slope no steeper than 10 percent. He said even that can be
very challenging.
Commissioner Petrash asked if there are any benefits to the people on the west side of Dunkirk
Lane with this new proposal. City Engineer Moberg responded that if this proposal were to be
approved and if some type of development proposal came forward as a result of that, certainly
any development that would take place would be required to have sanitary sewer and to have
water. He said that any extension of watermain that is going further west than what we have
today is allowing water to get that much closer to properties west of Dunkirk Lane. He added
that depending on how the issue of improvements to Dunkirk Lane would get resolved, that
could provide benefit to properties on the west side as well.
Mr. Gonyea added that the city wouldn't allow them to develop Dunkirk Lane or any of the area
without conforming to whatever road grades are in the ordinance. He said that the cost share is
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not an issue. He said that they would be paying the cost to bring the sewer and water up to
Steeple Hill.
Commissioner Petrash stated that the costs to provide sewer would not be paid by the city and
would be assessed to the property owners but that they would most likely be paid by a developer.
He asked if that was the prospect for the future. City Engineer Moberg replied that if the city
were to do a sewer and water extension project, the first step would be for some type of petition
to be received and considered. He said that in evaluating the costs and how those costs would be
allocated, it has been the city's practice to not participate in those costs.
Commissioner Nelson stated that city development has been slow over the last several years due
to the economy. He said that as development comes, water comes and as water comes, sewer
comes. He said that this area of Plymouth is developing east to west, which makes sense that the
sewer be realigned as it is being proposed. He said that he agrees that the comprehensive plan is
a dynamic, living document and is a guide. He said that things change over time. He said
making these changes so this area can be developed as planned makes sense. He said that he
would vote in favor of this request.
Commissioner Petrash stated that he would also be in favor of this request. He said that the
concerns for the impact to the west may be premature in that the way things could develop may
not be the worst case scenario. He said that with the east side developed and the infrastructure
moved, it might be a better case scenario. He said that this is a great plan and that we have to
move forward as there are people willing to develop the land and invest in it. He said that in this
case, he understands that the people to the west have concerns but that it looks like they can still
keep their properties on the residential rural side as they originally intended in the
comprehensive plan.
Commissioner Kobussen stated that he agrees that the city is developing from east to west. He
said that all development would stop if this change to the plan did not get approved. He said that
he understands that if the homeowners on the west side of Dunkirk Lane want city sewer and
water, it is their option to petition the city but then they have to realize that they have to pay for
it. He said that it is so much easier to wait until a developer comes in and pays those costs. He
said that he would be voting to approve the amendment to the comprehensive plan.
MOTION by Commissioner Nelson, seconded by Commissioner Anderson, to approve the
request by Gonyea Company for a comprehensive plan amendment to the sanitary sewer plan to
revise sanitary sewer districts and the development staging plan for properties located at the
northeast and southeast corner of County Road 47 and Dunkirk Lane North and properties east of
Dunkirk Lane North. Roll Call Vote. 6 Ayes. MOTION approved unanimously.
7. NEW BUSINESS
8. ADJOURNMENT
MOTION by Chair Davis, without objection, to adjourn the meeting at 9:00 p.m.