HomeMy WebLinkAboutPlanning Commission Minutes 01-05-2011Approved Minutes
City of Plymouth
Planning Commission Meeting
January 5, 2011
MEMBERS PRESENT: Chair James Davis, Commissioners Dick Kobussen, Nathan
Robinson, Gordon Petrash, Scott Nelson, Erik Aamoth and Marc Anderson
STAFF PRESENT: Planning Manager Barbara Senness, Senior Planner Marie Darling, City
Engineer Bob Moberg and Office Support Specialist Laurie Lokken
1. CALL TO ORDER - 7:00 P.M.
2. PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
3. PUBLIC FORUM
4. APPROVAL OF AGENDA
MOTION by Commissioner Petrash, seconded by Commissioner Robinson, to approve the
January 5, 2011 Planning Commission Agenda. Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
5. CONSENT AGENDA
A. APPROVAL OF THE DECEMBER 15, 2010 PLANNING COMMISSION
MEETING MINUTES
MOTION by Commissioner Petrash, seconded by Commissioner Kobussen, to approve the
December 15, 2010 Planning Commission Minutes. Vote. 6 Ayes (Commissioner Robinson
abstained). MOTION approved.
6. PUBLIC HEARINGS
7. NEW BUSINESS
A. SECURITY STATE BANK OF HOWARD LAKE (2005059)
Chair Davis introduced the request by Security State Bank of Howard Lake for a subdivision
variance for two lots in Executive Woodlands for property located at 4th Avenue North and
Harbor Lane North.
Senior Planner Darling gave an overview of the staff report.
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Commissioner Anderson asked if there had been any negotiation on any of the elevations (garage
elevation, first floor, lower level, etc.) as shown on the proposed grading plan submitted. Senior
Planner Darling responded that there had been discussion about some of the elevations. She said
that when the applicant originally submitted their request, they had proposed a driveway grade of
10%, which is the maximum. She said that staff did request that they drop the garage floor
elevation so that the driveway slopes could be moderated. She said that 10% is quite steep and
the applicant is proposing 7-8%, which is a little more moderate.
Commissioner Anderson asked if there had been any discussion about the elevation difference
between the first floor and the garage and if steps were put in the garage, would there be a
greater separation there. Senior Planner Darling replied that the garage floor elevation on Lot 11
did not change very much and would not result in the need for many steps. She said that staff
had only asked the applicant to lower the garage floor elevations in order to produce the more
moderate driveway slopes.
Commissioner Kobussen asked what the distance would be from the end of the pond to where
the foundations would be on these homes. Senior Planner Darling responded that what is shown
is a concept layout for these homes, including a conforming location and logical size, and there is
no proposed construction on either one of the lots. She said that homes could be constructed
right up to the edge of the drainage and utility easement, which does take up a sizeable portion of
the lots. She said that would leave them with a house pad that would average about 45 feet in
depth and about 85 feet in width.
Commissioner Kobussen said that his concern is the distance from the water to where the
foundation would be and what the chance would be of that ground becoming saturated up against
the basement wall. City Engineer Moberg responded that in looking at the schematic submitted
with the proposed house pads in relationship to the pond, that the normal water elevation of the
pond would probably be about 20 feet from the edge of the house. He said that the high water
mark would be in the neighborhood of 10-15 feet from the footprint of the house pad as shown.
Chair Davis said that the staff report included a letter from Braun Intertec that addressed Lots 5,
6, 11 and 12 in this development and asked if Lots 5 and 6 already have approval for basements.
Senior Planner Darling responded that according to the geotechnical report, the groundwater is
too high on Lots 5 and 6 to propose going lower than the two feet above the high water elevation
of the wetland. She said that the applicant has proposed a plan modification to alter the grades,
essentially to build up around what would be the foundation of the homes on those two lots. She
said that would not require a variance and would be reviewed administratively.
Commissioner Kobussen asked what water would be draining into the pond, how the excess
water drains away from the pond if it becomes flooded to the maximum level and where that
water then drains to. Senior Planner Darling responded that Braun Intertec has suggested that a
perforated pipe should be buried on the outside of the foundation of the home that would carry
the subsurface water back to the pond. She said that should the pond overflow, staff has
recommended that a backflow preventer be put on the pipes so that water does not flow
backwards to the foundation. Senior Planner Darling also stated that the pond would drain
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through the emergency overflow route, which would lead to Harbor Lane. City Engineer
Moberg added that the development has a storm sewer system that discharges into the pond. He
said that at the east end of the pond, there is a control structure that is tied into the storm sewer
that drains to 4th Avenue and continues east and north to a fairly large wetland complex on the
west side of I-494. He said that if the control structure did not work or was blocked, water
would drain over land out to Harbor Lane and drainage could go either along 4th Avenue or south
to Gleason Lake Drive.
Commissioner Anderson asked for the elevation of the emergency overflow. City Engineer
Moberg responded that the emergency overflow elevation on the west end of the pond is at
985.5, so essentially the lowest opening elevations on these two lots would be 18 inches above
that elevation, which would be in compliance with the subdivision ordinance. He said the lowest
floor elevation is the only issue requiring the variance.
Commissioner Nelson asked if there were any statistics as to what kind of rain event would cause
the pond to overflow. City Engineer Moberg replied that when this development was designed,
the standards required that the pond would handle what is considered a 100 -year event, which in
this area translates to six inches of rainfall in a 24-hour period of time. He said that an event in
excess of that would be when we would start looking at an emergency overflow.
Commissioner Kobussen asked if there are any restrictions on what kind of waterproofing
material can be used on basement walls and flooring to make sure it doesn't crack or leak at a
later date. Senior Planner Darling responded that the building code would require that the
foundation be waterproofed and constructed to code standards and we would require an
inspection to make sure that is the case should the variance be approved. She added that what
those materials are varies based on the type of construction proposed.
Chair Davis introduced the applicants, Dave Nash and John Vogelbacher, both representing
Security State Bank. Mr. Nash said that Security State Bank took over this property from the
original developer. He said that the bank had asked him to look at the four lots in this
development that are designated as slab -on -grade (Lots 5, 6, 11 and 12). He said that to make
any determination from an engineering standpoint, he needed to know where the water table was
and he felt comfortable that that was not an issue. He said that he had Braun Intertec investigate
those four lots and the report came back that the water table was right there for two of the lots
Lots 5 and 6). He said that he told the bank there was nothing they could do for Lots 5 and 6
because as an engineer, he felt uncomfortable recommending a basement on those lots and so
they took them out of the variance request. He said that on Lots 11 and 12, they are asking for
the ability to put in basements. He said that a basement would be at least 16 feet above the water
table that was used at the time that Braun took their piezometer readings. He said that clearly
tells us that the adjacent pond is not impacting the water table for these lots, which is consistent
with heavy clay material. He said that setting basements at the normal water level of the pond is
an acceptable alternative design criteria for low basements in other cities. He said that the
standard for the lowest openings would be to maintain a foot and a half clearance from the
emergency overflow of the existing pond. He said you wouldn't want any less than that to
minimize the potential for flooding on those lots.
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Mr. Nash said that as far as steps in the garage, particularly on Lot 11, more steps could be
added. He said that he laid out a typical lot with a decent driveway slope at 7% and with a 9 -foot
basement. He said the reason being that on any house design, it is desirable to minimize the
number of steps in the garage. He said that it may be increased when they come in with their
actual house design but he is just showing a potential house and giving whoever buys these lots
the flexibility to put in a different type of house.
Mr. Nash said that he took the original plan and put houses in the exact same spot. He said that
is not to say that is where the house is going to be as they are custom lots. He said they could be
moved closer to the pond. He said that it should not impact groundwater.
Mr. Nash said that the slab -on -grade houses that were mentioned in the staff report are five lots
in Carlson Terrace. He said the first two lots have unfinished basements and the other three are
slab -on -grades. He said that they all have about the same assessed value but that Lots 3, 4 and 5
all get bigger in square footage. He said that without a full basement on these lots, somebody is
going to try to make these houses bigger and impact trees more. He said that trying to get a full
basement on these lots adds more value to the house but decreases the footprint of the house.
Commissioner Nelson asked if the applicant was okay with slab -on -grade for Lots 5 and 6. Mr.
Nash responded that they are not requesting a variance. He said that by increasing the slopes on
driveways, they can put in modified split -entry with a half basement and not a slab -on -grade. He
said they would require retaining walls on the front of the house to save trees. He said this
would provide more value than just having a flat house.
Commissioner Nelson said that it was noted in the staff report and in the resolution that future
homeowners would bear the risk of future inundation if a variance was granted. He asked if it
behooves the developer or builder to notify the homeowner that a variance had been granted to
have a full basement on their property and if the city bears any responsibility if the basement
floods. Senior Planner Darling replied that the future homeowners would be notified. She said
that the variance resolutions would be recorded against the property, as would a revised final plat
resolution and the amended development contract. She said that the documents get recorded
against the property so that there is a clear indication that there is something different on this
particular property. She said that she did check with the city attorney on the liability issue and
that the city would not bear responsibility for inundation on this site.
Commissioner Nelson said that the prospective homeowner would be given that disclosure prior
to closing or to building on the property. Senior Planner Darling said that the notice that the
resident would get would be the recorded resolution approving the variance plus the other two
revised items.
Commissioner Petrash asked if that disclosure is to the bank or to the next owners. Senior
Planner Darling replied that all subsequent property owners would be notified by these
documents during closings.
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Mr. Vogelbacher said that the variance would be in the disclosure document given to prospective
buyers prior to writing a purchase agreement for the lot. He said that recorded documents don't
tend to get read, so disclosure is important to protect liability of the seller and the seller's agent
and to duly inform the buyer.
Commissioner Kobussen said that would be true only for the first buyer and that the second
buyer would only have what is recorded. Mr. Vogelbacher stated that would be true.
Commissioner Kobussen asked if there was any way of raising the basement so that it's equal to
the maximum high water level and putting more steps in. He asked if the applicant had thought
as another option about raising the first floor height, raising basement level and putting a few
more steps in the garage as an alternative of either a slab -on -grade or full basement. Mr. Nash
replied that they had looked at that and could have more steps. He said that to build a house with
the full basement that's two feet above the high water level on these ponds, they couldn't meet
that goal. He said to get a 10% driveway slope would require six feet of steps in the garage. He
said that as an alternative, they came back and tried to find a way to lower the basement. He said
that to get up to the full standard requirement for a pond would require raising the basements
three to four feet more.
Mr. Vogelbacher said that a house could be built on either of these two lots. He said that in this
particular neighborhood, a number of other lots in the project have full basements, lookouts,
walkouts, etc. He said that they have gone through marketing of the neighborhood and there is a
great deal of apprehension from builders and from buyers as to what is going to happen to these
slab -on -grade lots and market values. He said that they are trying to create lots that are valuable
enough to support the value of the existing homes that are in the neighborhood. He said that
there is no question that a nice house could be built on these lots but it has a pretty substantial
impact in regard to the overall fabric of that collection of 12 homes. He said that there is a huge
variance of values in the neighborhood. He said that it could detract from marketability for the
desirability of existing homes and lots in the neighborhood. He said that the premise of trying to
improve the lots is to hold the integrity of the neighborhood together.
Commissioner Nelson asked that Mr. Vogelbacher define what he meant by a wide variance in
values. Mr. Vogelbacher replied that the assumption is that a slab -on -grade home on these two
lots would be in the $400,000 - $550,000 range. He said that may not be an acceptable variance
to a homeowner trying to sell a 1.7 million dollar home. He said that in terms of how it fits in
the neighborhood would be odd and detract from other homes. He said that a range of $500,000
750,000 could potentially swing what could happen.
Commissioner Kobussen asked what the probability was of the wall cracking and settling over a
40 -year period. Mr. Nash responded that the water table is 20 feet down and the basement on
this lot would be no different from the basement on the lot right next door to it.
Commissioner Anderson said that the lot value was established a long time ago when this plat
was approved. He said that some developer, using a reputable engineer, valued all the
considerations (trees, elevations, ponding and location of ponding) and came up with what they
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thought was their best solution that some of these lots are slab -on -grade. He said that the
Planning Commission is now being asked to change that by three and a half feet. He said that is
three and a half feet lower than where it is supposed to be and all the waterproofing in the world
is not going to help someone 10-20 years down the road that bought themselves a problem. He
said that he would not vote in support of approving something with a three and a half foot
variance. He said that he disagrees with the concept that it's all they can do. He said that a
change in the elevation of the basement and steps in garage would make that change to
something that is very doable. He said that he would consider something in between but they are
not asking for that at this point. He said that what they are asking for puts some future
homeowner at risk.
Commissioner Kobussen said that he looks at this becoming a problem. He said that when your
home floods, only federally -sponsored insurance for flood plains is covered and this is not in a
flood plain. He said that he would hate to see someone buy a home 20 years from now and find
they have a huge problem because whenever there is a major rain storm, it's a possibility it could
flood and that there could be excessive water in that basement. He said that there are other ways
of raising the site, lowering the floor, even going to slab -on -grade. He said that in layout of this
development, it was considered an acceptable practice to put in slab -on -grade and it wouldn't
deteriorate from this neighborhood. He said that in the Carlson Terrace area, there is no
difference in assessed values. He said that there are other workable solutions than approving a
three-foot variance in floor level and that he would not be voting in support of this proposal.
Commissioner Nelson said that he agrees with both commissioners statements. He said that on
the marketability issue and from his experience in building a house, it is the cost per square foot
to build. He said that the examples given in Executive Woodlands are $200-$300 per square
foot, based on assessed value. He said that a slab -on -grade home on these lots (if 4,000 square
feet as done in Carlson Terrace) at $250-$300 per square foot would put you into a 2 million
dollar home. He said that he does not see an issue with it being compatible with the
neighborhood and agrees with the issues of future homeowners and water down the road. He
said that he would not be voting in support of this proposal.
Chair Davis said that he agreed with the other commissioners and that based on the other houses
in this area, a slab -on -grade could be built that would match the qualities of the other houses. He
said that five other lots in this neighborhood have not been sold yet so it's not a hardship that
these two lots are standing out as unbuildable. He said that water in a basement is a bad thing
and that as much as we say we can mitigate it, this is a long term proposition. He said that he
would not vote in support of this variance request.
MOTION by Commissioner Anderson, seconded by Commissioner Nelson, to deny the request
by Security State Bank of Howard Lake for a subdivision variance for two lots in Executive
Woodlands for property located at 4th Avenue North and Harbor Lane North.
Commissioner Aamoth said that we try to try to look at balancing the responsibility of the city
with trying to do what we can to make sure folks have opportunities to do commerce and to
provide homes for people. He said that he agreed with the other commissioners, particularly
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with the issue of long term risk and whether or not it's the right thing for us to put somebody at
risk. He said that for that reason, he would not vote in support of this variance request.
Vote. 7 Ayes. MOTION approved.
8. ADJOURNMENT
MOTION by Chair Davis, without objection, to adjourn the meeting at 7:45 p.m.